Manufacture of cylindroconical container

mikewagstaffe · Apr 3, 2018

Appealing to those with greater knowledge than myself..

If I wanted to manufacture the basic shape of this vessel. What processes would be involved, we are talking low volume almost one off production.

My initial guess would be 3 pieces; domed lid, cylindrical body and conical base all welded together.

What process would you use to create such a thing, or the component bits if I am correct.

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Rick Finsta · Apr 3, 2018

Every fermenter I've seen has been constructed that way excepting some small homebrewing setups where I've seen some kind of drawn/formed cone used.

mikewagstaffe · Apr 3, 2018

Rick Finsta said:
Every fermenter I've seen has been constructed that way excepting some small homebrewing setups where I've seen some kind of drawn/formed cone used.

That was my guess too.

The bit I'm bit sure of is how each part would be manufactured..

Would you roll a cylinder welding and smoothing the seam, or make it as a solid form in someway? The same for the cone simply roll a cone. I ask because all of these that I have seen don't seem to have a seam, so am curious as to how it's manufactured.

The domed top I'm guessing is a pressed dome?

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DDoug · Apr 3, 2018

What you posted is not a picture, rather a "solid rendering"

So no seam would show.

And with real pictures, well they try to hide the seam, and there is a blending solder
used in food grade stainless work for just such a purpose.

What machinery do you available on such a small island ?

mikewagstaffe · Apr 3, 2018

digger doug said:
What you posted is not a picture, rather a "solid rendering"

So no seam would show.

And with real pictures, well they try to hide the seam, and there is a blending solder
used in food grade stainless work for just such a purpose.

What machinery do you available on such a small island ?

I appreciate the picture shown is a solid rendering, but having seen them in the flesh I can assure you their final construction looks to be seamless.. Looks can obviously be deceptive hence my question.

On this small island as you put it we have more than enough machines available.. Dont forget.. This small isle once heralded a great empire.. If I haven't got access to it then could have it sub contracted out.. Importantly at the moment it's the how it can be done, without the expensive tooling costs for large production runs.

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DDoug · Apr 3, 2018

mikewagstaffe said:
I appreciate the picture shown is a solid rendering, but having seen them in the flesh I can assure you their final construction looks to be seamless.. Looks can obviously be deceptive hence my question.

On this small island as you put it we have more than enough machines available.. Dont forget.. This small isle once heralded a great empire.. If I haven't got access to it then could have it sub contracted out.. Importantly at the moment it's the how it can be done, without the expensive tooling costs for large production runs.

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Why not just buy what you have found online ?

Do you think you can somehow make it cheaper than someone set up to do these all day long ?

Search the archives, IIRC Joe Micheals wrote about the blend & fill solder.

mikewagstaffe · Apr 3, 2018

digger doug said:
Why not just buy what you have found online ?

Do you think you can somehow make it cheaper than someone set up to do these all day long ?

Search the archives, IIRC Joe Micheals wrote about the blend & fill solder.

Because what I have found online is not exactly what I am after, and nobody sells a simple vanilla tank if they did I certainly wouldn't be exploring other options. They are all heavily modified in a way I don't want them to be.

Hence have one made to my specifications.

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Peter from Holland · Apr 3, 2018

The cone can be made out of 2 pieces on a press brake
If you are good at it even out of one piece
The smaller the steps the smoother the result
You can get a perfect result if you use a dedicated upper and lower die

Peter

SteveBausch · Apr 3, 2018

Are you SURE you can’t find a fabricator willing to make it to your specs?

Fermented beverages have a long history. The fabricators are competitive. Perhaps you’ll need to travel across borders.

If your intention is something other than a beverage, perhaps a biotech-oriented fabricator will agree to your design.

Are you being hindered by EU regulations?

mikewagstaffe · Apr 3, 2018

SteveBausch said:
Are you SURE you can’t find a fabricator willing to make it to your specs?

Fermented beverages have a long history. The fabricators are competitive. Perhaps you’ll need to travel across borders.

If your intention is something other than a beverage, perhaps a biotech-oriented fabricator will agree to your design.

Are you being hindered by EU regulations?

I possibly could find a fabricator to make what I need to my specs, but before I can pass it to a fabricator I would need to ensure my design (not the image shared) is feasible, hence my wanting to understand the typical manufacturing process. I'm not one to ask for something to be made without at least having a basic understanding of the manufacturing concept.

I totally agree if a standard fermenter they really are 10 a penny ( to coin an English phrase), and it would be pointless embarking on making one, the application I have is very different but cannot divulge too much at this stage. The basic design is functionally the same but that's where the similarities end.

So if you were going to make a 1m diameter by 1.5m seamless cylinder, a cone 1m major diameter about 1m tall, and a 1m diameter bowl lid. How would you make them... lets say for ease 0.75mm wall thickness 316 stainless steel.

In the absence of suggestions, I'd guess

Roll them weld them clean up the weld?
Spin them?
Hydroform?
Deep draw?

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SteveBausch · Apr 3, 2018

stainless steel cones - Google Search

stainless steel tank heads - Bing

Tank Accessories: Manholes, Manways, Handholes, Weld Flanges at CMF

Do you require that sightglass for reading the level?

Liquid Level Gauges & Valves | Level Gauge | Flat Glass Gauge | Tubular Gauge Valves - John C. Ernst

Is the goal something that is defined as “dual-use”, having peaceful and military uses (bioweapons), and you’d prefer not to purchase an item that attracts unwanted attention?
Dual-use technology - Wikipedia

https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20040122_RS21422_af5dd1387b6f136ed6fa6174575229e77f2e7255.pdf

A question in the current debate over chemical and biological terrorism is: how well do current United States policies limit opportunities to terrorist groups for acquisition of such weapons? The domestic purchase and use of “dual-use” biological equipment, such as fermenters, centrifuges, and other equipment, is one area suggested as potentially providing opportunities for terrorist, biological weapons development. Dual-use equipment has both legitimate civilian and military use. Regulating international sale of dual-use equipment is used as a nonproliferation policy tool. Similar regulation of domestic sales has not been employed. This report will discuss the difficulties of applying domestic controls on dual-use biological equipment and the potential advantages and disadvantages of doing so.

DDoug · Apr 3, 2018

mikewagstaffe said:
I possibly could find a fabricator to make what I need to my specs, but before I can pass it to a fabricator I would need to ensure my design (not the image shared) is feasible, hence my wanting to understand the typical manufacturing process. I'm not one to ask for something to be made without at least having a basic understanding of the manufacturing concept.

I totally agree if a standard fermenter they really are 10 a penny ( to coin an English phrase), and it would be pointless embarking on making one, the application I have is very different but cannot divulge too much at this stage. The basic design is functionally the same but that's where the similarities end.

So if you were going to make a 1m diameter by 1.5m seamless cylinder, a cone 1m major diameter about 1m tall, and a 1m diameter bowl lid. How would you make them... lets say for ease 0.75mm wall thickness 316 stainless steel.

In the absence of suggestions, I'd guess

Roll them weld them clean up the weld?
Spin them?
Hydroform?
Deep draw?

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Each fabricator has their strengths, make a sketch of what you want the finished product to be.

TALK with them, and they will explain how they would do it, and what can you live with.

Rick Finsta · Apr 3, 2018

Unless you're worried about chlorides I don't think 316 would be necessary - 304 should be fine?

A lot of food grade stuff I've seen was welded autogeneously and then blended as mentioned above, but I've seen some with plenty of grinding! Our vacuum tanker trailers at work look the same where the seams are smooth but you can tell the polished areas versus the brushed areas easily.

Just don't neglect your back purge on the welding!

Bondo · Apr 3, 2018

If you can't see the seam, that probably because they blasted the tank afterwards. If you polish the seam and heavy grit blast stainless, or heavy passivate it, you can hide a weld seam easily. Easiest way to find the seam on tanks like that is to "find the stud behind the wall" and keep beating on it until you hear the thud. That's the weld seam.

Brake formed cones will have 2 weld seams and rolled will have 1 seam. It's pointless to make a pressed cone that long.

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mikewagstaffe · Apr 3, 2018

SteveBausch said:
stainless steel cones - Google Search

stainless steel tank heads - Bing

Tank Accessories: Manholes, Manways, Handholes, Weld Flanges at CMF

Do you require that sightglass for reading the level?

Liquid Level Gauges & Valves | Level Gauge | Flat Glass Gauge | Tubular Gauge Valves - John C. Ernst

Is the goal something that is defined as “dual-use”, having peaceful and military uses (bioweapons), and you’d prefer not to purchase an item that attracts unwanted attention?
Dual-use technology - Wikipedia

https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20040122_RS21422_af5dd1387b6f136ed6fa6174575229e77f2e7255.pdf

Thanks Steve,

Some useful information.

No its definitely not a dual purpose project.. Just one purpose.. If it works out make me rich..

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mikewagstaffe · Apr 3, 2018

Bondo said:
If you can't see the seam, that probably because they blasted the tank afterwards. If you polish the seam and heavy grit blast stainless, or heavy passivate it, you can hide a weld seam easily. Easiest way to find the seam on tanks like that is to "find the stud behind the wall" and keep beating on it until you hear the thud. That's the weld seam.

Brake formed cones will have 2 weld seams and rolled will have 1 seam. It's pointless to make a pressed cone that long.

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That's great Bondo, that's pretty much what I assumed but didn't want to guess.

Thanks

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Peter from Holland · Apr 3, 2018

mikewagstaffe;3152950 In the absence of suggestions said:
Do you have a problem reading or understanding my post #8 ??
Do you have me on your ignore list ??
Do you have a grudge againts people from the Netherlands ??

Peter

adama · Apr 3, 2018

digger doug said:
Search the archives, IIRC Joe Micheals wrote about the blend & fill solder.

Some of us just weld it and grind it out - off after and don't need the filler.

To me its a few simple profiles, laser cut would be my first choice in pre finished - polished or so called bright annealed sheet, then a set of rolls and buy the tank end in for the top and buy the access port in, probably a laser cut ring or ring segments welded up. I would not make that in 0.75mm though for industrial use i would much rather be in the 1.2-2mm range at a minimum, would only use as thin as 0.75mm if it was cladding over a insulation layer, which is pretty common on some of this kinda stuff.

Over here something like that of those dimensions would be costly, several hundred in materials alone and a good few days labour - welding, as to how perfectly polished out, kinda all depends on the customer, the people making stuff to sell normally have stringent finish requirements for hygiene wash down, but are not too bothered about perfectly polished and ripple free perfection. Some of the hobby brew guys want a setup that looks immaculate and high grade stainless work polished out fully really bumps costs you just don't need in typical industrial process gear.

Other thing to do if you can buy close is buy it and just modify it, can save a lot of work and time, a lot of fermenting - process vessels really don't overly matter about exact shape - dimensions more just total capcity, its more what ports heating coils and other arrangements you want and most of that stuffs all pretty easy to add on - in.

Not a fan of 304 for process equipment, whilst its more than good enough for a lot of products chemical resistance wise i have often seen it badly corroded through use of nastier cleaners. Something as expensive as this labour wise is not worth trying to save only a few hundred on materials wise.

Bondo · Apr 3, 2018

adama said:
Not a fan of 304 for process equipment, whilst its more than good enough for a lot of products chemical resistance wise i have often seen it badly corroded through use of nastier cleaners.

I totally agree, but you don't understand customers around here. I have lost plenty of jobs to people who will build steel framed with stainless 200 or 400 grade just on area where it is 100% required.

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Rick Finsta · Apr 5, 2018

That's why I specified avoiding chlorides - many of the acid CIP solutions are Hydrochloric Acid based. If you use a Phosphoric Acid base nothing to worry about.

Manufacture of cylindroconical container

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Hot Rolled

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