What's new
What's new

silver solder vs brazing for cast iron intake manifold

JohnnyBeaneSr

Plastic
Joined
Sep 26, 2006
Location
Seagrove NC
I have a 1968 Ford F100.
With a 300 inline 6 cylinder.
The gasket was leaking between the intake and exhaust, so I unbolted them,
Then the middle bolt rang off in the intake.
So I drill, and tryed an easy out, but the ear snapped off.
It is cast iron.
Which is stronger silver solder, or braze?
I am leaning towards silver solder, but I am not sure.
What do you think?

Thank You.
 
Nickel weld would be the strongest, followed by brazing.

That was a very popular engine. There should be millions of them in junk yards. I bet a not broken one could be found for a pretty reasonable price.
 
Nickel weld would be the strongest, followed by brazing.

That was a very popular engine. There should be millions of them in junk yards. I bet a not broken one could be found for a pretty reasonable price.

Every thing over 10 years old has been crushed.
No used 300 inline motors here any more.
And none of the part stores have intakes.
They have the exhaust, but not the intake.
Plus I don't have the extra $$
 
Try craigslist, I just found this one (local to me...sorry):

ford 300 6 cylinder engine


Here's one in Greensboro (actually Denton), which I recall is close to Seagrove:

1983 Ford F150

The seller says:
The body is in rough shape. The hood, driver fender, and door is in good shape. Other body parts or banged up and have rust. The engine is a 300 6cyl. I got the engine to run for a few seconds but then cut off. Someone has installed an electric fuel pump that has went out. The engine seemed okay. No rattles. It had an exhuast leak and maybe a missfireing plug. It has the four speed manual transmission. Im not sure if its a granny four, or the overdrive four. If interested in any parts my number is 336-425-4943. Thanks

-Brandon-

Around Indy, junkers are going for $200, if you have the title. So, if the buyer doesn't want much for the truck, buy the truck, take that nice bumper and grill, take the manifold, call the "we buy junk cars" people?
 
Try craigslist, I just found this one (local to me...sorry):

ford 300 6 cylinder engine


Here's one in Greensboro (actually Denton), which I recall is close to Seagrove:

1983 Ford F150

The seller says:

Around Indy, junkers are going for $200, if you have the title. So, if the buyer doesn't want much for the truck, buy the truck, take that nice bumper and grill, take the manifold, call the "we buy junk cars" people?

I wish they were selling for $200.00 here.
I would buy a few in the futher.
With all the job loss, and the price of scrap went up, every thing was taken to the scrap yard, and crushed.



It is a clean break, a small round ear with a threaded hole in it.
The intake, and exhaust are bolted to the head so there is little stress on it.
It is mostly to hold the two together along with two other bolts to keep the intake/exhaust gasket tight.
So I thought silver solder, of braze to fix it.
I just wondered which is stronger.
I had a DUH moment, I could have posted a picture. Duh lol
Arrows point to where the bolts are located.

BrokeIntake--.jpg


2BrokeIntake-.jpg


2BrokeIntake----.jpg


I was hoping to Get-Er-Done before next Tuesday.
But its not looking to good with all the rain we have been getting every day the last week.
 
If you work the engine hard, the manifold could get hot enough to melt silver solder. Brazing is usually good for a little more heat, but not much. The best solution would either be arc welding with nickel rod, or else gas welding with cast iron ron. Either one would work, but neither works well with dirty metal.
 
That ear break is a nearly impossible fix. Brazing will probably fail unless you can face the surface off in a mill to prevent over loading the ear. Nickel is going to cause a hard zone and it'll be like trying to drill and tap glass when you go to put the threads back in it and it'll probably break again. Going to take somebody that really knows cast to make this work, no easy short cut on it. You'll probably be better of finding another one somewhere. It is indeed getting tougher to find these old parts now.
 
No reason at all why nickel would cause a hard zone. It's used specifically because the carbon doesn't dissolve in it. If you understand pre and post heat treatment, the surrounding metal will be soft cast iron just the way it started off.
 
Instead of fixing the ear and trying to tap it, can you just weld a stud into the remaining half of the thread? That would be a lot easier.
 
Another thing I have done is to mill or grind out a pocket, and weld in a regular hex nut. The threads will distort a bit, but it should be plenty strong. Again it saves you having to use a drill and tap.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

I had an F150 with a 300 6 cylinder for 10 years. It was my first car. It served me well, but I do not miss it. It left me walking at least 4 times. 1 fuel pump, 1 ignition module, 1 intake gasket and injectors, 1 seized smog pump and shredded belt.
 
"If you understand pre and post heat treatment, the surrounding metal will be soft cast iron just the way it started off. "

Mark, unfortunately, about 1 in 100 welders understand pre and post heat and how it affects cast iron. I have never worked on a piece of cast iron that was nickel welded that didn't have a section of white iron at the HAZ for this exact reason. Pre and post heat takes time and patience, so most welders don't bother. It could easily be welded, as mentioned with OA torch and cast iron rod, but it will require the proper pre and post heat, even more so than the nickel rod. I have yet to meet anybody in a welding shop that knows how to do it, much less would actually take the time and effort to do it right.
 
I put a WANTED ad on craigslist for a manifold for a '72 GMC 292. A week later I had a BRAND NEW manifold pair for I think $100, local buy so no shipping or doubt. Not to say you will get so lucky, but it costs nothing to try. It seems ironic to me that, down there in the land of no body rust, reasonably late model vehicles (remember, mine's a '72) have been scrapped, while up here stuff that's so rusty the body is held together with 2x4's is still on the road, being used every day.

The Ford 300 may be a dead issue in cars and light trucks but was also used in some medium duty's and also extensively used on industrial applications. We had several over the years on wood chippers, and I've seen them on leaf vacuums and pumps as well. These may be another source of used parts. I wouldn't bother about trying to fix the old one, but if you do and plan to keep the pickup for a while be on the lookout for another manifold, as the patch probably won't last. (That's why I was in the market for the 292 manifold - the exhaust cracked many years ago and I had it welded at a very competent local welding shop that I had been using for a long time. They arc welded it, but last fall, about 20 years later, a big chunk fell out somewhere near Columbus Ohio and that was that. This did not involve a lot of use, as the truck now has only 43,000 actual miles.)

Steve
 
I found what I need to fix my broke intake with.
Castaloy

Brazing vs Castaloy (Cast iron repair rod)

Castaloy works similarly. The main difference is that when complete, the bond will be stronger than brazing because you are joining iron to iron and making it into a complete whole instead of just a joint. Brazing forms a patch but Castaloy creates a newer and stronger bond. The joint to be melded needs to be thoroughly cleaned, (Please see our article on cleaning). Once properly cleaned and the acid, (provided at purchase), is applied you can then add flux if you desire. The role of flux is to dissolve the oxides on the metal surface. This facilitates wetting by molten metal, and acts as an oxygen barrier by coating the hot surface. It thereby, prevents its oxidation. Additionally, it allows solder to flow easily on the working piece rather than forming beads as it would otherwise. When brazing, the metal repair rod is heated to a temperature that is slightly above it’s melting point. When using Castaloy, we recommend that you heat the metal being repaired and not the rod itself. When you touch the rod to the metal, it will melt on contact. You will first want to set your tacks to prevent expansion. Once your tacks harden, proceed with mending. Heat the receiving metal to temperature and allow the molten Castaloy rod to fill in the gaps. Once the bond has cooled it will be as strong as it once was, if not stronger.



It seems that is makes a very strong bond for cast iron.
Now if I can find a small peace.
Any one have any Castaloy?
 
Snake oil alert.

Very plainly put, what is being said here is total BS. This is no miracle process. You are either brazing cast iron, soldering it, or welding it.

If you are brazing or soldering, the rod has a lower melting temp than the cast iron and the repair is through adhesion of the filler to the base metal. Solder is a lower temp operation and doesn't have quite the stickiness of brazing. A properly brazed repair will have an adherent layer that is stronger than the cast iron itself in tension. If you properly braze cast, you can take a chisel and peel the bronze away, but it will take the cast iron with it, just like a good glue joint in wood. The part needs to be preheated to around 400 degrees, then brazed, then the torch kept on the part for several minutes and slowly withdrawn. The part should be buried in sand, ashes or lime and allowed to cool very slowly. More massive parts can be air cooled in still air, but something thin like a manifold has to be insulated to cool it slowly.

If you are truly repairing cast iron with cast iron, it is a welding process, where both parts, base and filler are melted, just like any other welding process. The joint is not adherent, but homogeneous... all cast iron. That sounds simple enough and the ideal route to take.... BUT. Cast iron is finicky stuff. Lathe beds and other cast iron wear surfaces are hardened by rapidly cooling cast iron (pouring molten iron against steel chills in the mold to make them cool almost instantly). If you heat cast iron to the melting point and cool it rapidly, you get this effect, which is white iron... hard and brittle as glass. Also, cast iron is VERY weak in tension (white iron even more fragile), so any stresses from welding and drawing will result in a crack as you watch it cool. To weld cast iron as in this manifold, you MUST preheat it to where the entire manifold is glowing a dull red, then keep it that way with a big rosebud or weed burner (assistant operated) while you perform the weld, then keep the heat on it as it cools, finally putting it in a heat treat oven and cooling it slowly over an entire day to ensure it remains soft and malleable throughout. Try to shortcut this and you'll end up with a break, guaranteed.

Arc nickel welding is the same deal. You are heating the area adjacent to the nickel to several thousand degrees with an electric arc and then gobbing in nickel. Now, the nickel is indeed softer and more malleable than iron and will not crak or be hard to machine.... that area right where the nickel joins the iron is going to be hard as hell and brittle as glass. I have had to repair cracks at nickel welds by drilling and tapping bolts to draw the break together.When you hit the white iron, the drill just starts squealing. You will usually have to sharpen the drill at least six or seven times to get through the 1/16" thick hard zone at the base of the nickel. After that, it feels like drilling cast iron again. A proper nickel weld should have the same preheat and post heat as a cast iron weld (doesn't have to get quite as hot or stay red hot during the entire process) or it's going to form white iron and will probably crack as you watch it cool. You also need to peen the hell out of the nickel before it cools with either a hammer or needle scaler to prevent stresses from tearing it out of the iron at the joint.

Now, as you can see, the "castaloy" rods certainly don't fit the welding description, and it's not a nickel rod, so it has to be some form of brazing or solder he's touting as a new process. Following his directions with a can of granular brazing flux and ordinary brazing rod, I will get the exact same result and probably with the same or better strength. That's exactly how you braze cast properly, clean (the acid is his gimmick file or chisel works just as well), preheat, tack, braze, cool slowly.

Being that it is a relatively low temperature operation, it's going to be just as susceptible as brazing to failure at a high temp in your manifold situation. Further, there's almost no way to prevent white iron forming on that ear, even if you braze it. It's so small it is going get to very near the meting temp by the time you get the manifold hot enough to stick. It's going to be hard and brittle and it's very likely going to break off when you try to put a tap through it to restore the threads. It'll certainly break off when you tighten it unless you can face the mating surface in a mill or similar to get it perfectly flat so there is no stress on the ear.

The only way you MIGHT get this to work is to make a steel replacement ear and braze that on. Steel doesn't chill like cast when it cools and is a lot more flexible. Chances are it's not going to hold either, as it'll just break off the manifold further down.

if there was any way to get a steel reinforcement in the broken area, it might hold. I always make a mechanical repair to broken cast iron that is strong enough to hold, then braze over the mechanical fasteners (straps, keys, plates, bolts rivets, screws, etc...) to permanently lock them in place. Works like steel reinforced concrete. I guarantee any cast iron braze repair for life. Never had a failure. Overkill? Maybe, but it works.
 
Look here

You could just swap the 6 out for a v8... I did that years ago and saved a negative $1000 :D

seriously check this out:

81 82 83 84 85 86 FORD F150 EXHAUST MANIFOLD 6-300 4.9L | eBay

With all those contours and given the size of the manifold you would need to preheat and post heat the entire manifold to guarantee success.
The fuel cost to heat it might exceed the $75 bucks the guy wants of the manifolds. Must have hid them form the greeniots during the cash for junker debacle.
 








 
Back
Top