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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnworks View Post
    I think you would be better off to think of the tubing as steel folding chairs. Like I could resist.

    Welder settings for me would be 40 amps(for .062), 3/32 1.5% lanthanated tungsten with a 30 degree included angle and a .005 flat tip. Gas lens not collet body with a #6 cup. 45 degree or greater torch angle to push the puddle some and a slight sweeping motion. I use a short arc length to where the force of the arc just starts to make a slight indent in the puddle. 10 start amps around 90-100ms long. 3 end amps. I prefer lower amps to give more time for nasty junk to burn off along with the slight sweeping motion really makes a difference in keeping the impurities as low as you can get it. Also if my welds are coming out gray or black Ill slow my process down and or go with a larger cup. Any color less gray or black is fine.

    If running straight beads(no weave) Id run pulse with a near 90 degree torch angle. Pulse settings 50 main amps 85% peak 50 background 4-5 pulses per sec.
    I highly doubt there's a need for a gas lense in this case lol. I've been rockin e3 electrodes lately and really like them.

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    I build a lot for the industrial food industry. From conveyors to tables to custom machinery. What I have found is that strength isn't always required. For example, if I'm building a small frame that needs ok strength, I will weld 2 sides with filler metal and 2 sides with fusion to keep warping down but still have all the strength I would ever need.

    I highly doubt you are getting full penetration unless you are sitting there soaking your weld as you go. I weld a lot of purged sanitary tube and it is a somewhat slow process for full pen.

    I also pulse weld fusion to keep warping down to a minimum. You can have more pen with pulse or a lot less depending on your skill level and what you want out of it.

    Personally I think all you need is 1 side with filler and 3 sides sealed. This is also tig welding suggestions

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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  4. #23
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    Turn,
    that is some specific info on your settings, thanks for that.
    What welding machine do you use? My synchro doesn't have a wide selection of parameters.
    Can you explain more about the color and why slowing/larger cup make a difference?

    Bondo,
    I like your style! Is that all SS you are referring to or also mild steel as well?
    Why does the fusion reduce warping? I think I know the answer but want to hear your thoughts.

    Michael

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    Not that specific honestly. Ive had to write weld procedure books for two places Ive worked at for ISO and Nadcap along with some customers that require it.

    Welding is considered a special process meaning you can't really measure or test what you just did without destructive testing. Can x ray but that really doesn't give the whole picture in my opinion. Bend or metallographic testing is the way a lot of weld specs say to do destructive testing.

    Visual inspection is really all we have to judge a weld from the outside. Color, weld size, lack of fusion, pin holes, fish eyes, cracks, underfill, craters, undercut, cold lap and lack of penetration is all visual. Actually some cold lap can only be seen through metallographic but won't get into that.

    Any other color than nice shiny silver is a form of oxidation. Any liquid or hot steel not in a completely oxygen(and other gases) free environment will oxidizes. Most colors other than gray/dark gray and black are ok. Titanium is different and only silver and light straw is ok but doesn't apply here.

    So if your welds are gray than oxygen is hitting it before it has the chance to cool down. The temps it has to get below vary based on the metal groups and even with in the metal groups themselves also some metal retains heat longer than others.

    If you tack and leave the torch above the tack with post flow going you will get nice shiny tack no oxidation. Travel speed, gas lens or collect body, what metal it is and its thickness, cup size, torch angle and gas flow settings all play a part in the color of the weld.

    Its just testing to get away from the gray. Try changing torch angles or any of the list above until you find a combo that works.

    Decent way to understand it is the color of the tungsten. You can heat that tungsten glowing red over and over and over and if you use a little preflow/long post flow and don't wave it in the air like mad it will stay sharp and the original color. If you start getting it different colors the tungsten starts to break down and the tip is the first to go. As a side note I hate E3 tungsten

    Im currently using a lincoln prescion at my day job and miller dynasty at home. Love the pop a miller inverter makes when the arc starts. Other cheaper machines now have a lot more features. Everlast comes to mind.

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    Turn,
    Very good info in that last post.
    I was wondering why sometimes I would get a shiny weld and sometimes gray. Some experimenting is required.
    You don't actually say why gray/dark gray/black colours are not ok?
    I am not using a gas lens, just a collet body. What is the right size cup for a 1/16" tungsten? I currently use a #6 which may be too small?

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    Probably pulling contaminants from the backside, or too much heat. Tube is nasty, oil soaked inside and out. Cut, grind/bevel, deburr and the most important full acetone wipe down. Wipe the tube inside and out. I would weld that with a bigger cup than a #6 and I always run a gas lense, well almost always.

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    I rarely tig weld steel. I mostly weld stainless and aluminum.

    Here is an example for you.

    If your welding 1" sq tube T connection (2 pieces in a L configuration) and you fusion weld the inside corner only, how strong is the weld?

    Now you do the same weld but with filler. How strong?

    Now you do the same filler weld, but you put a tack dead center of the opposite side. How much stronher?

    Now you use filler on the same inside weld and do a complete fusion weld kn the opposite side. Much stronger now.

    Then you weld 1 side with filler and 3 sides fusion, even stronger.




    The question you have to ask yourself is how strong do you really need? I have built over 100 conveyors and I may have used 1/2 a pound of filler total on all of them combined. Most of the filler is used at specific connections such as the motor mount and such.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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    One thing to realize is that if you weld autogenous using different metals you effectively make a different alloy at the weld. The reason for welding like this is that you are not adding outside alloying elements, even when using type specific filler. You will mostly see this call out in oil and gas, chemical, and food and beverage applications. This ensures that the same material is present throughout the system.

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    With oxidation(gray/black)you are changing the mechanical properties of the steel and not in a good way. I am not a metallurgist just some years experience in TIG welding.

    For a better understanding if you make a gray weld let it cool then run over it with the TIG again. The puddle will not do a dang thing you want it to do and undercut the living snot out of the sides of the weld.

    Do the same thing but this time over a nice shiny silver TIG weld and its plain as day the difference. Kustom has a very good point. While the top of the weld may have good gas coverage until the metal temps go down the underside does not. Again try a tack on the tubing with low amps then higher and higher you will literally see when the puddle hit the back side of the tubing because the scum will start showing in the puddle.

    Also the oxidation isn't just surface either. You can take a piece of stainless tubing and run a hot weld right on it to where the color is gray or black then grind said weld down until it looks nice and clean like the parent material. Take a magnet and roll it across the tubing over the weld and it will stop on the weld.

    I also prefer a gas lens unless its a tight spot requiring the smaller collet body. Other than tight places I have never seen a reason to use one over a gas lens(price isn't much difference). As for cup size thats up to you, its all just testing to see what works best for you.

    Certs is another big thing not as in awesome Im certified but in the knowledge gained from it. The method you used to weld the test piece is now the standard in your head as to what will make a strong weld. I have fused without filler butt joints on thinner metal and passed certs. Have also used filler on butt joints and passed. I don't remember the amount of certs I have had seeing as how most only last for 2 years unless you do all the paper work to cover your butt during an audit.

    Also learned a lot from failing weld tests which Ill admit I have a hand full of times. Seeing the grain structure during the metallographic testing is just freakin cool.

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  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnworks View Post
    With oxidation(gray/black)you are changing the mechanical properties of the steel and not in a good way. I am not a metallurgist just some years experience in TIG welding.

    For a better understanding if you make a gray weld let it cool then run over it with the TIG again. The puddle will not do a dang thing you want it to do and undercut the living snot out of the sides of the weld.

    Do the same thing but this time over a nice shiny silver TIG weld and its plain as day the difference. Kustom has a very good point. While the top of the weld may have good gas coverage until the metal temps go down the underside does not. Again try a tack on the tubing with low amps then higher and higher you will literally see when the puddle hit the back side of the tubing because the scum will start showing in the puddle.

    Also the oxidation isn't just surface either. You can take a piece of stainless tubing and run a hot weld right on it to where the color is gray or black then grind said weld down until it looks nice and clean like the parent material. Take a magnet and roll it across the tubing over the weld and it will stop on the weld.

    I also prefer a gas lens unless its a tight spot requiring the smaller collet body. Other than tight places I have never seen a reason to use one over a gas lens(price isn't much difference). As for cup size thats up to you, its all just testing to see what works best for you.

    Certs is another big thing not as in awesome Im certified but in the knowledge gained from it. The method you used to weld the test piece is now the standard in your head as to what will make a strong weld. I have fused without filler butt joints on thinner metal and passed certs. Have also used filler on butt joints and passed. I don't remember the amount of certs I have had seeing as how most only last for 2 years unless you do all the paper work to cover your butt during an audit.

    Also learned a lot from failing weld tests which Ill admit I have a hand full of times. Seeing the grain structure during the metallographic testing is just freakin cool.
    Yeah that gray flat colored weld is no bueno...on a different note, er347 leaves an awesome rainbow color on the bead...quite interesting lol

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    Get a gas lens, It helps. A Lot. It's worth the extra cost in argon/up front for the kit.
    Being able to get your tungsten out closer to the weld will let you move faster which will result in less heat, warping, and oxidation. Plus the weld is covered better and has a chance to come out shinier.
    Running hot and fast per a given joint can result in better welds than cold and slow. We are talking about plain steel here, adding fancy alloys to the mix is a whole different can of worms.
    T's and V's have a better chance than outside corners and flats. Argon's heavier and joint geometry and gravity do matter in some cases.

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    I haven't had a chance to try out any techniques yet.
    I will get a gas lens to see the difference. I have been doing more and more tig so it is time to invest and get better.

    Thanks for all the input, my apprenticeship on the PM continues!

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    ...Well, although many people call it 'fusion' welding, the proper name is autogenous...and if you're applying for a job...it's a real good idea to call it that...
    All sorts of answers here, but it usually works best on lap or edge welds...pretty common in food industry Stainless sheet metal...

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    Finally did some more tig welds.
    Photos show the fit up and then one of the welds.
    The gas lens does a good job on the flat but I had more trouble with the fillet welds, much easier with the regular setup for some reason.
    The flat weld had pretty good color and some short sections with grey color that I could see (when welding) was contamination floating on the puddle.
    The grey areas brushed off easily.

    I was running 1/16" tungsten and about 50 amps which I upped to 55. I need to play around with the heat some more and see what happens.
    Material is 2" x 2" ERW, .063 wall.

    Sticking the tungsten out a bit farther does make it easier to see, I was surprised to read that you can go up to an inch with a gas lens.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails tigweld.jpg   tigweld2.jpg   tigweld3.jpg  

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    One amp per thou of thickness for steel...

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    Plastic,
    I am aware of the rule of thumb.
    Turnworks posted that he would use 40 amps for .063 material so I tried a lower amperage.
    I fusion weld 1/8” material with 100 amps and it comes out well.
    I think it is just a general rule to get you in the ballpark and then adjust from there if it is too hot or cold.

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    That's a rule of thumb to set your machine...you may start at or around Max amps then back down or you may never go pedal down. If you don't give yourself a little room at the top end you are not leaving fudge room. It's easy to back off current while welding, it's a pain to have to stop to crank it higher.

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    Get the tungsten out further for the fillet welds. Rest the cup on the joint, and drop the tungsten out till its almost touching the joint. You can almost slide the cup along but Im not a fan due to being able to move faster if its not touching.

    If I was welding the joint your showing, Id be up around 60-70 amps, and I would be in Haul Ass mode. Like if it took more than 15-20 seconds to get across that I'd feel like I was taking to long...

    Nice fit up though, that's more than half the battle.

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    Had about 30 mins free time last week and figured this might help. Welded up some simple butt joints in 2" 1/16" thick mild steel tubing.

    All welds were with 3/32 tungsten, gas lens and a #6 cup.

    In the link start from the bottom right pic and go right to left and bottom to top.

    First is 40 amps with no prep at all and no filler metal. Im not gonna lie it hurt my soul to weld it. The amount of scum, contamination and porosity was sickening. Was aiming for full pen.

    Second is 40 amps with only surface prep and no acetone. No filler metal was added At the beginning I added too much heat and started seeing the scum float to the surface of the puddle so I sped the pace. I wasn't aiming for full pen.

    Third is 50 amps with zero prep and no acetone. I use .035 er70s filler metal just slowly dabbing it with a small weave. I wasn't aiming for full pen but more to push the filler metal down inside the tube.(easier to do than to explain).

    Fourth was same as the third except this time I aimed to get full pen and really mix the base and filler metal together. It was much more difficult to try to keep the puddle doing what I want.

    Fifth was almost full prep(didn't get the inside corners well enough), argon backing and acetone. Used 50 amps and .035 filler metal. Aimed for full pen.

    Sixth was full prep inside and out with acetone cleaning and argon backing inside the tube. I use 40 amps and a slight weave. I aimed for full pen.

    The rest of the pictures are the inside showing the pen and go in order of the list above less the last two which you can tell which are which by the filler metal added.

    I made one attempt at each of the different methods. Not trying to give an excuse for the imperfect welds but I see no value in welding 10 welds and take the pick of the litter to show others. Also the color looks much more gray then in person. I probably would have more luck showing the color differences using a #8 cup but is what it is.

    As for me on a paying job but not needing to go overboard with prep and backing gas Id go with the 3rd one all day long. The weld build up is very slight and easy to knock down.

    TIG Mild Steel 123 by Bob Marley | Photobucket

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