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Used CNC press brake advice: brands, controls, etc?

Fish On

Hot Rolled
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Location
Foley, Alabama
I'm finally at the point where I need to buy a press brake. I've been running a 6' x 12 gauge Dreis and Krump box/pan brake for the past 7 years. This was fine back when I was doing one-off oddball stuff, but now I'm getting into some short run production runs, sometimes on 4'+ pieces of .125" aluminum - my body isn't going to take too much more of that.

I've been trying to sub out as much bending as possible. A local job shop purchased a new 12' Accurpress a few years ago. There were some growing pains initially, as they got kinks worked out of the equipment, and operators changed, but it looked like it would work well. Unfortunately, I can't get the quality I need (and by that, I mean actually reading what's on the work order), and I'm at my final straw with them. I haven't found other suitable shops within a suitable driving distance.

I primarily work with .125 and .090" 5052 aluminum, lengths up to 6'. What I know I need is something in the 6' x 60 ton range. 1 man shop, so I cannot justify new costs for the amount of weekly use it'd get. I think I want to be in the 30k range, all in (machine, tooling, rigging and phase converter). Is this reasonable?

Toolingwise, I' really only need one set of tooling initially. 1" v die (I often do reverse bends, so no 4 way die blocks) and a set of gooseneck sectional punches. Basically, set up properly for the .125, and the extra radius is fine for .090. The die can be a single piece, but I do need sectional tooling for the punch (I do lots and lots of pans, in varying sizes). I'm familiar with 'new standard' (Wila) tooling. Seems like it's the cats meow for what I'd do, but probably not in the budget. What would be a suitable lower cost tooling with the understanding that it'll need to be constantly changed for differing pan sizes?

Phase converter. I've got 200 amps single phase. Pretty sure most of these brakes are going to be 7.5 or more likely 10 hp. Is a 20 hp rotary the best option? Phase-perfect (maybe not, based on Wheelieking) or other options? I never hear of swapping to a single phase motor, though I see them for sale in the 10 hp range. Is that not an option for some reason?

Are there any brands I should specifically look for or avoid? I'm probably not looking at Amada budget. I see lot of the Accurpress 7606s for sale. A couple Wysongs on Ebay.

Controls? I know absolutely nothing about the controls on these, and have precisely 0 experience with anything CNC. I know I need a decent ram stroke control, and a simple backgauge control (don't need all the fancy 5 axis stuff the higher end ones have). I'm aware that I'll get a fairly primitive control. Are there any specific controls to avoid? What question do I need to ask on this front that I'm not yet aware of?

I'm not needing real tight tolerances (no Trumphs or anything like that - just tape measure tolerances). I'm having no problems getting the accuracy I need on the hand brake - just need to cut a little time out, and lessen the risk of hurting myself.
 
Since you only deal with 1/8" alum, you should look into used cnc apron brakes like roper Whitney or ras for example. You don't need any tooling and can do bends up to 140*. I ran one for years, wonderful machine. But not as easy to find used.

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That's an interesting suggestion. I've never seen any of those on the used market.

As for conventional style, what's everyone's thoughts on Adira? A local machine dealer has a 55 ton 79" machine on consignment. 2006 model 5020. Looks like it's at a shop about 2 hours from here, which would definitely be easier regarding inspection and rigging/shipping.
 
Because your only planning on bending alu with it, you don't overly need to sweat the quality of the tooling, over here 2K would get you brand new non name brand tooling. You could also go tighter than you 1" die with out any real issue. 1/8 alu will bend just fine in a 3/4" die if you need that to clear on tightly spaced bends. If you have the funds spare look at rolla V, its costly but it works so damn well on softer metals like alu to reduce marking. Key thing with alu in my experience is punch radius, that will cause alu to crack easier!

I would personally go new cheap import tooling than second hand, press tooling has a habit of getting abused and you really want nice clean tooling for alu work.

Don't forget to budget in machine moving costs, press brakes are a odd load shape wise and it can be costly. Also what your requirments are safety wise, retrofitting light curtains etc can really swallow a big bite out of the funds.
 
Because your only planning on bending alu with it, you don't overly need to sweat the quality of the tooling, over here 2K would get you brand new non name brand tooling. You could also go tighter than you 1" die with out any real issue. 1/8 alu will bend just fine in a 3/4" die if you need that to clear on tightly spaced bends. If you have the funds spare look at rolla V, its costly but it works so damn well on softer metals like alu to reduce marking. Key thing with alu in my experience is punch radius, that will cause alu to crack easier!

I would personally go new cheap import tooling than second hand, press tooling has a habit of getting abused and you really want nice clean tooling for alu work.

Don't forget to budget in machine moving costs, press brakes are a odd load shape wise and it can be costly. Also what your requirments are safety wise, retrofitting light curtains etc can really swallow a big bite out of the funds.

1 man shop, so OSHA has no bearing on me. No need for light curtains or anything else.

I'm perfectly fine with the result I get with urethane film, so no need for fancy tooling. I just want to make certain that punches are easily changed, and not 'clocked' in a certain order, since I'll sometimes do 10 different size pans one after the other.

My closest offset is usually 1", so I would think a 1" vee die would give me adequate clearance.



I just found an LVD 60 ton, 98" bed. 1989 model, with a Hurco Autobend 5c control, about 3 hours from here. 12,500 including rigging on the sellers end. Looks like American tooling. Any reason to avoid that brand or that control? I can't find much on the net about them, but they seem to have been around awhile.
 
Don't do adira. I had a customer who had an adira shear and they basically blackmailed the service. You have to buy only from Adira as they don't support non company repair people and parts are way expensive and out of stock.



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Don't do adira. I had a customer who had an adira shear and they basically blackmailed the service. You have to buy only from Adira as they don't support non company repair people and parts are way expensive and out of stock.



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Good to know on the Adira. Won't go that route.

I'm waiting on the dealer to be able to get me into the sellers facility to look at the LVD. If it's condition matches the pictures, I'll probably pull the trigger on it. It's 8 - 10 years older than a lot of the other machines I was looking at, but also 10-12k cheaper, and was at a defense contractor instead of a job shop.

I downloaded and read through the Hurco Autobend 5c operation manual. It seems primitive, but I'm thinking it should do all that I need it to.
 
I'm still waiting on the seller to get me in to see the LVD (being sold by a dealer, but hasn't yet been removed from previous owner's facility). Unfortunately, it's no longer under power, but I do have videos of the ram functioning, and the backgauge moving. One of the videos shows a pretty big pile of oil dry under the machine, so it may not be the ideal candidate, unless I go into planning on cylinder rebuilds. No clue how involved that is.


There's an Accupress 7606 also for sale in my area. It has a backgauge, but it's not an OEM one. It appears someone retrofitted a Newall DRO electric backgauge, much like a shear would have. Initially, I thought that would be fine - wouldn't take much time at all to create a quick spreadsheet of backgauge position to leg length, what with me using the same 2 - 3 material thicknesses all the time.

Only issue I came up with was if it's a standalone device, it may not be programmable to retract as the bend starts, which could be a crash hazard with reverse flanges. Is that a deal breaker on that machine, or are flip fingers a suitable solution? I don't know if they are only to prevent the accidental crash, or if they are suitable for regular clearance issues.
 
Maybe a bit off topic, but I don't understand how people get along without sectionalized V dies.

Do your pans always have closed corners that you weld? Because to make flanged edges that rivet or bolt together you would need sectionalized dies. And honestly if you're going to spend a ton of money on a brake you may want to figure out how to make more bends and fewer welds anyway.
 
Maybe a bit off topic, but I don't understand how people get along without sectionalized V dies.

Do your pans always have closed corners that you weld? Because to make flanged edges that rivet or bolt together you would need sectionalized dies. And honestly if you're going to spend a ton of money on a brake you may want to figure out how to make more bends and fewer welds anyway.

The nature of my parts pretty much requires welding. Watertight is a requirement, and many parts require post weld fairing/blending for aesthetics.
 
I had my 8" cylinder on my 230 ton Cincinati rebuilt. I needed it asap and they turned it around in 2 days. I already had the seals though from Cincinnati. They charged me $2300 and I thought that was pretty cheap for fast service and overtime to help reinstall

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Was just about to sign the papers on the LVD, when a salesman called me back about a '99 Accurpress 7606 (not the same one that had the aftermarket backgauge) that I'd inquired about, and as it turns out, the seller was willing to negotiate the price, quite a lot. So, I instead signed the papers on that machine. I'll have to ship it out of Seattle, but the condition appears to be immaculate, and the price was definitely right.
 
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Only issue I came up with was if it's a standalone device, it may not be programmable to retract as the bend starts, which could be a crash hazard with reverse flanges. Is that a deal breaker on that machine, or are flip fingers a suitable solution? I don't know if they are only to prevent the accidental crash, or if they are suitable for regular clearance issues.

Curious to hear from experts. My sense is the way a brake control and back gage handle reverse flanges has varied over the last 30 years. Flip fingers are basic. The geometry must be right to avoid crashes and not sacrifice accuracy. If the pivot is too high it can jam. If too low or not adjusted level, pushing the part against the back gage moves the fingers.

The more modern controls know exactly when the punch touches the work and can retract at the instant the work is grabbed and the back gage position no longer matters. I assume that requires the control to have a mathematical model of the punch & die geometry and may only work for certain tooling.

I do odd stuff with inset flanges where the gage surface i.e. what contacts the back gage is not what is being bent and so swings *down* as the brake cycles and so typically avoid the crash issue by gaging on a vertical surface with no shelf for the stock to sit on. I also use urethane die inserts and other odd shape form tooling that sometimes causes the same part edge to swing both up and then down during a cycle. No idea what a modern control would do with that.

My back gage is an aftermarket Gcode control, easy to mess with as needed. I've experimented with using a cam and limit switch adjusted to close when the punch contacts the work, to signal the control to retract.

Aside 8 years ago I thought I'd need only a few punches & dies, but now have 100+ pieces of tooling, standard punches & dies, gooseneck punches, urethane vees, urethane vee inserts, and all sort of shop made radius punches, offset & other form tools. I tend to say yes to everything the brake has the capacity for, and try to get the job to pay for the tooling. Still plenty to learn.

Good luck with your new press.
 
The more modern controls know exactly when the punch touches the work and can retract at the instant the work is grabbed and the back gage position no longer matters. I assume that requires the control to have a mathematical model of the punch & die geometry and may only work for certain tooling.
.

The salesman put me in touch with one of their techs yesterday, and he told me that it's programmable, at least on the control that my machine has (just the basic ETS 100 NC control). It appears that I can tell it the point that it needs to retract, but it doesn't figure it on its own.
 
On the amadas i have used you have to have the material thickness programmed correct for nip, then you can set the retraction to a couple of different modes and give it a distance as well. Start getting into more complex stuff and it just takes some thinking through. At least on the amadas the fingers were only held in place by ball detents, so you got it wrong worst you had to do was walk around back and pop em back in.
 
Finally got shipping arranged this morning. $1400 to bring it 2600 miles, tarped and air ride. Figured I'd never beat that. Rigging company across the street wants $825 to bring it inside. Tow company at the end of the street figures about $500 to unload it and get it in the door with their rotator. I'll skate it the rest of the way.

Ordered an American Rotary ADX-20 phase converter. Was planning on ordering the AD series, but got talked into the ADX for a couple hundred more. I mentioned possibly getting a second 10 hp machine (shear) in the future, and asked about running them both at the same time (not starting at the same time).

I found out that my knowledge of those was more limited than I realized, as I had been under the impression that the 20 hp converter could only start 10 hp, but could run 2 simultaneously, as long as they weren't started together. When they insisted I'd need a 40 hp, I decided that I'd be fine turning one machine off before turning the other on if I end up with a second machine.




Getting quotes for dies right now - one section of gooseneck punch, and one section of 7/8" vee die. 85 degree. Nobody has larger radius dies 'off the shelf,' so to get a 3/32" radius, I'm looking at a custom run, no matter what. Everything readily available is 1/32 or 1/16" at the most. So far, I'm looking at $409 for the die, and $875 for 6' of punch ($1075 for 10' - guy insists that I should get 10, to give extra for cutting into sections). That, too, sounds fairly inexpensive.

Also, waiting on the seller to confirm that the pictured die riser block comes with it. That will potentially affect my tooling options if it turns out that it's getting pulled.
 

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Getting quotes for dies right now - one section of gooseneck punch, and one section of 7/8" vee die. 85 degree. Nobody has larger radius dies 'off the shelf,' so to get a 3/32" radius, I'm looking at a custom run, no matter what. Everything readily available is 1/32 or 1/16" at the most. So far, I'm looking at $409 for the die, and $875 for 6' of punch ($1075 for 10' - guy insists that I should get 10, to give extra for cutting into sections). That, too, sounds fairly inexpensive.

Also, waiting on the seller to confirm that the pictured die riser block comes with it. That will potentially affect my tooling options if it turns out that it's getting pulled.


I have a 7608 from the same vintage that I purchased new and absolutely love using it. It is a great machine. The only difference I noticed is the controls on yours looks mounted to the front of the upper ram. Mine is mounted on a pedestal that has about a ten foot cord that allows me to move it around as necessary. Doesn't sound like much of a deal, but every once in a while, you'll have the need to hold the sheet you're bending from the back of the machine and the portability of the pedestal makes it less of a hassle. I'm thinking, but not sure, that the foot pedal on yours could be able to be dragged to the rear of the machine for those times. There is just one other issue with the controls mounted where they are. There are those situations when bending bigger panels with multiple bends, that you have a slight crash when the panel in the front of the machine comes up and contacts the ram. The location of the control box could limit you what you can do with the machine. Won't happen alot but just mentioning to make you aware. When I purchased mine, the die riser (I call it a bolster) was included and came installed on the machine upon arrival. I would discuss it with the seller, but I would be like "the riser is included, since it was delivered when the brake was delivered new, right?". I am thinking that any new machine would come with it and there would be no reason to remove it. The slot in the lower plate is over size with set screws in the front and the back so you can adjust the center line location of the vee die in relation to the upper punch center line. The slot in the riser is clearanced to allow easy installation of your forming dies, and only have set screws on the front of the bolster to hold them in place.

The Die guy is steering you rightly. I might also suggest that you order your 7/8" vee die either 8' or 10' for the same reason he's suggesting. Cutting off a piece of your die is the most economical way to acquire the short pieces you will come to appreciate, while still retaining a full length to avoid having to use multiple pieces to make up a full 72". Why have to install a 6' die when a lot of your work will be 24" or less at the bend line. That six foot die will weigh a bunch more than the shorter pieces.

One other tip. Make sure the seller includes the operating manual. In addition to learning the nuances of the machine, the manual is where the original parameters are supposed to be. I say supposed to be since the tech that came to commission my machine had to program the parameters during the original install. It's not a deal breaker if it's not include, but will make it easier to fix if for some reason the machine loses a parameter. It happened to me once, and the factory service guy on the phone referred to the manual where the tech wrote the parameters of my specific machine and options that were included.

It's not an Amada or Cincinnati, but then we don't all live in a four decimal place neighborhood. It is a great machine with a huge value to weight ratio.
 








 
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