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Welding High Carbon Steels

ConMan08

Plastic
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Hello, I'm currently working on a new project that takes us a little out of our norm. We need to weld several pieces E52100 high carbon steel together, preferably using a tig welder (although we do have a mig and stick welder on site if necessary). I am aware that preheating to 350F will be required and possibly some post weld tempering of the assembly once complete but I am having difficulty trying to determine the appropriate filler rod that would be required. As a side note the assembly we are working on will have a dynamic load applied to it up to 12,000 lbs and will also be submerged in a molten bath of aluminum.

What would the appropriate filler rod be for tig welding E52100 high carbon steel?
 
Hello, I'm currently working on a new project that takes us a little out of our norm. We need to weld several pieces E52100 high carbon steel together, preferably using a tig welder (although we do have a mig and stick welder on site if necessary). I am aware that preheating to 350F will be required and possibly some post weld tempering of the assembly once complete but I am having difficulty trying to determine the appropriate filler rod that would be required. As a side note the assembly we are working on will have a dynamic load applied to it up to 12,000 lbs and will also be submerged in a molten bath of aluminum.

What would the appropriate filler rod be for tig welding E52100 high carbon steel?

I'm out of my element, but I'd weld it up with a ductile filler, and then before it cools I'd throw the whole thing into the molten bath of aluminum to normalize and stress relieve.
 
I'm out of my element, but I'd weld it up with a ductile filler, and then before it cools I'd throw the whole thing into the molten bath of aluminum to normalize and stress relieve.

We do not have access to the molten bath of aluminum. We do have several high temp furnaces we can use to accomplish the same result.
 
One of the Welding sites talks about suspending a 14,000 Lb ingot of 52100 during electric furnace remelt by hanging it from a 9" OD 1045 piece welded to the 52100 with 309 filler metal

Its fallen off twice now - failed weld - which can't be any good at all for the furnace bottom



and will also be submerged in a molten bath of aluminum

Isn't steel soluble in molten aluminum?
 
Thats a Lot of carbon, and the chromium isn't going to help at all.
Some of the 120 series fillers maybe? You would have to watch the various letter combos to make sure your getting something close to the base metal (or at least one that cant make it any worse)
Or high nickle(inconel) filler...
Peening the weld (like within .25 seconds after the welder stops the arc...) can help keep it from cracking...
You might want more than 350F pre heat, more like 400-500f...
Any reason you have to use this specific steel? can something that is a little more weld friendly (but still high strength) be used?
 
52100 has a carbon equivalent over 1 with the .1 carbon plus chrome carbides will be held in any retained austenite resulting in a pretty poor combination. You want to avoid quick quench weld parameters for the retained austenite thing, and shoot for a recipe that mostly gives a lower bainite structure. After which, there would be a complete thermal treatment to get what you want.

Appropriate would be a 52100 rod at a temp north of 600F with the parent metal in a normalized condition (HT)... If it's jacked to max hard then the WM 880 (equivalent to eutectic 680 or harris super missileweld and some other duplex SS rods) and the pre-heat and min-temps are still 550-600F range (tight). The 52100 will lose near 100ksi strength at that heat if it's hardened and have a seriously screwed up HAZ... If you really need the near 400ksi you can get with 52100 in a weldment but it won't be easy.

A real welding engineer would look over the TTT/CCT diagrams & try real hard to make a procedure for you, all the time thinking somebody is nuts.

Good luck,
Matt
 
Hello, I'm currently working on a new project that takes us a little out of our norm. We need to weld several pieces E52100 high carbon steel together, preferably using a tig welder (although we do have a mig and stick welder on site if necessary). I am aware that preheating to 350F will be required and possibly some post weld tempering of the assembly once complete but I am having difficulty trying to determine the appropriate filler rod that would be required. As a side note the assembly we are working on will have a dynamic load applied to it up to 12,000 lbs and will also be submerged in a molten bath of aluminum.

What would the appropriate filler rod be for tig welding E52100 high carbon steel?

Whoever 'spec'd' 52100 needs to be apprised of problems discussed;
and required to furnish YOU appropriate weld procedure, inspection/acceptance criteria. Running some test coupons for micro/macro, then physical testing wouldn't hurt a bit.

I wouldn't classify this type of work as 'low liability'.
Customers spec all kinds of marginal to impossible to stupid to dangerous items--being clueless/arrogant/ignorant....and then the manufacturer/shop burdened with trying to make it happen...is adverse to discussion with the specifier??

I don't get embarrassed stating 'R&D ain't for free', on anything that is waaaay out in left field.
I think you're toying with a high liability, FREE R&D, project from hell.

Some of the best contributors to the bottom line are 'the jobs declined for good reason'.
 
Im in the it will disolve in the aluminum tank club too!

That said welding high carbon steels, Normally its high preheat, weld whilst maintaining preheat, then into furnace whilst hot and a full anneal cycle, much less the welds HAZ goes brittle, the weld shrinks it cracks and falls apart. Exact temps depend on alloys used and base material, Preheat has to be kept as low as possible whilst high enough to ensure the metals tempered soft enough not to crack as it shrinks from molten - red heat.
 
screwy!?

Im in the it will disolve in the aluminum tank club too!.

If you have ever melted AL, you know it melts at a "barely incandescent" very dull reddish heat for pure metal (660C), and many alloys, (such as die casting and welding filler alloys) considerably less.

steel, 1400 range, a "near white" heat.

steel is used as a mold material for die casting aluminum. yes, they are usually water cooled, but if it were particularly soluble in molten aluminum that would not be possible

and yes, I know a molten "bath" is going to be hotter than the melting point, but only by a 100 C to so, I would think, at the most for Al.

who the hell would spec 52100 to weld? used in molten aluminum? it's not a high temp alloy, or generally considered weldable. something is screwy here!
 
Good to have doctoral dissertations on the fact, but I am vividly reminded by personal experience

Not quite fifty years ago, I melted some AL in my coal stove (trying out my new STARRBIDE crucible)

I poured maybe a cup full into a steel coffee can sitting on a 2 X 4 board on my new concrete shop slab

The molten AL IMMEDIATELY ate thru the can wall, ran across the board and pooled on the slab - and few seconds later violently exploded the concrete - hammering the over head with a shotgun blast of pebbles/aggregate

A second before I luckily got away from the area

On Edit for below:

Al pretty dam hot in your coal stove, way past melting

Dull red inn natural light - less than 1300 F
 
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kaboom!

Good to have doctoral dissertations on the fact, but I am vividly reminded by personal experience

Not quite fifty years ago, I melted some AL in my coal stove (trying out my new STARRBIDE crucible)

I poured maybe a cup full into a steel coffee can sitting on a 2 X 4 board on my new concrete shop slab

The molten AL IMMEDIATELY ate thru the can wall, ran across the board and pooled on the slab - and few seconds later violently exploded the concrete - hammering the over head with a shotgun blast of pebbles/aggregate

A second before I luckily got away from the area

dramatic stuff for sure! glad you got clear. i'll bet you got the Al pretty dam hot in your coal stove, way past melting, and not anything like a temperature controlled melt in an industrial setting.

the failure mode there was most likely not the Aluminum "eating through" the steel, but the heated steel reacting with air and "burning"

that is also a reminder of why heat and concrete can be a dangerous mix! water is part of the chemical compound of set-up portland cement, and when it turns to steam it really wants out!
 
steel is used as a mold material for die casting aluminum. yes, they are usually water cooled, but if it were particularly soluble in molten aluminum that would not be possible

Look up soldering in reference to die casting. Also die spray, and steel coatings which are designed to counteract this.

John's example is fairly extreme, but this is a real issue - the molten aluminum will leach iron which is a contaminant for the aluminum and also will degrade the steel over time.
 
I have sold Aluminium swarf to the local melting /recycling shop and they get really worked up about any steel swarf mixed with it ,apparently it is not a good thing in the final product.

Maybe the fabrication in the OP will be treated /coated with something.
 
thermite,

Look up soldering in reference to die casting. Also die spray, and steel coatings which are designed to counteract this.

John's example is fairly extreme, but this is a real issue - the molten aluminum will leach iron which is a contaminant for the aluminum and also will degrade the steel over time.

hey hillside, not sure what soldering a die casting has to do with this.

of corse a die that accepts molten metal at 550C is going to be subject to erosion over 10s of thousand to millions of cycles.

the question of molten aluminum "dissolving" steel, which implies a particular reactivity well below the melting point is different.

thermite welding pretty much proves aluminum doesn't have a particular affinity for Iron, it does really, really like O2 tho. was that coffee can rusty John? there was your failure mode if so! you made a tiny thermite bomb, perhaps?
 








 
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