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Why is gas welding info such a clusterf@#$?

Clownshoes

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Location
NC, USA
I recently got set up with an oxy/acetylene outfit and in the process of educating myself on it I keep coming across conflicting info/opinions on the proper procedures and methods. For a technology that has been around for over 100 years I really don't understand it. The comment section for almost every gas welding video I have found is a cesspool of people going back and forth about what was done right or wrong. At this point, the only information I can rely on is in the manual that came with it but even that's not always clear in places.

For starters there is the whole which gas to shut off first debate, then you have all the people conflating cutting with welding, or brazing with welding, or cutting with brazing (of course they've been doing one for 30+ years they just don't know which), then there is the partial vs. complete opening of the 02 cylinder debate, then do you set the reg pressures with gas flowing, off or to hell with the reg pressure and flow recommendations and control it with torch valves, then you have people insisting you need flux for everything or making all kinds of assertions about what fillers to use with what metals.

Is this a case of the information being old or forgotten, or no consensus among welding schools, or no one giving a crap because everyone is arc welding? Inhaling too many fumes?
 
You realize that's what the welders see when they come here for machining advice? :stirthepot:

Given the choice between advice from the Internet and advice from something published under the Lincoln or Miller names, or written in a well-regarded textbook for welding instruction, I would take the latter and just ignore the Internet.

I don't have a "red" welder, but the Lincoln folks have done the industry a great service in their technical and educational publications on welding technique and weldment design. A fair amount of it is directly applicable to oxy-acetylene welding, not limited to arc welding methods.
 
What he said.

AFAIK, there have been two or more dead-tree books written same title "Modern Welding Practice".

The one I learnt it from was authored (or maybe it is an 'editing" job?) by DeForge.

Heliarc was still king of the electron-diddling crowd. MiG and TiG not yet on the radar.
Gas, OTOH, Ox-Acetylene and Ox-hydrogen, was really well covered, War-One onward rosette welds on rag and tube aircraft frames and all.

That must have been end of the 1940's - or early 1950's issue. Older books of this sort come up on Amazon. Older is probably better in this case. Otherwise the gas welding chapters get marginalized as MiG and TiG claim space. Have a recce.

Another source, a mentor of mine having been a US Navy Master Diver and welder - under water, even - in War Two, might be US Navy pubs.

US Navy had uncommonly good training materials, instructors, and courses. Too much at risk in their vast range of needs to tolerate half-vast performance.

Among other things, any Navy has the annoying housekeeping chore of keeping trillions of tons of seawater out of their living and operating spaces. They are a tad anal about that for some reason, so shitty welds are just NOT on their dance-card.
 
Gas welding best done with someone who can mentor.

A few tricks to learn that cannot be read about.

Some adjust regulators with gas on torch wide open as this allows easy repeatable flame when doing many short tasks but this is highly frowned upon.

Tricks about setting flame are toughest to learn and best with a skilled person showing you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
 
Tricks about setting flame are toughest to learn and best with a skilled person showing you.

Another thing is that even with the best of mentors, one needs good fine-detail eyesight, ability to cope with a wide range of intensity, and good colour vision. Not everyone of every age and health condition has that. Some never did.

The range and balance across carburizing - neutral - Oxidizing flame is a very narrow one.
Fotos online, I am sure.

Frustrating if this is a problem and the person struggling is not aware why some other Pilgrim can nail it, fast, and he cannot, even slow and patient.

Not a show-stopper, but this is part of why a gas-welder may be seen as much an "artist" as a technician. A higher percentage of what drives the outcome is in his hands, eyes, and mind, a lesser percentage is in the capability and quality of his equipment.
 
What he said.

Heliarc was still king of the electron-diddling crowd. MiG and TiG not yet on the radar.
Another source, a mentor of mine having been a US Navy Master.

Heliarc IS TIG, which is now GTAW, of corse. :)

+1 on Navpapers training manuals.

My suggestion is to get a manual/guide from one of the manufacturers of oxy-fuel equipment, such as Smith, and certainly at first, stick to the recommendations of that Sorce.

Oh, and Why exactly would you be supprised to find the internet Is a cesspool of jackasses who think only THEY are right...? :D
 
You realize that's what the welders see when they come here for machining advice? :stirthepot:
LOL - Too true.

I think the wide range of opinion is because you can get away with a wide range of techniques and still successfully melt things together. They are not all equally good, but the folks who favor one way or another will defend "theirs" just like political opinions.
 
Heliarc IS TIG, which is now GTAW, of corse. :)

Must be a lot younger than I am?

:)

Heliarc started out with no Tungsten!

Helium was used initially to simply shroud legacy electrodes to keep Oxygen away. I'd have to guess that came off the back of the USA having stockpiled rather a lot of it during the Dirigible age, then no longer needing it for that, and not-yet needing it for.. other porpoises.

Folks "learned"stuff". Better things came later. Thankfully.

Helium is a nuisance to store. It wants to migrate through the metal of cylinder walls and valves.
 
I honestly think its easier to learn to tig weld and then gas weld... but if you can tig weld why even bother with gas welding at all?

Several reasons. One is "cheap investment" when use is infrequent and jobs are of small size.

My case it was tinier yet.

Our Ox-Hydrogen rig was a box with an electric power cord. It used pure water.

The target was Iridium-stiffened Platinum jewelry, sometimes tiny built-from-wire pendents , earrings, or prong settings for diamonds on rings. Platinum-group metals need serious heat, and our "normal" bench rigs were only Oxy-natural gas.

Once hired a recent Russian immigrant who had worked in a factory that had used mouth operated "blowpipes". Fuel was low-octane motor gasoline. Shocking change for HIM, what WE had.

Gas brazing and welding offers a LOT more fuel choices than just Acetylene, may not even involve Oxygen.
 
I think when Heliarc was invented they were still using the helium for flight. Dad was welding with helium for the Army Air Force during WWII, but actually learned the procedure before the war, '39 or '40. If I remember his stories correctly they were using helium shielded arc for aluminium airframe work, but it's a little late to ask him now.

Dennis
 
partial vs. complete opening of the 02 cylinder debate

The valves on all high pressure gas bottles have a seat that shuts gas off when closed, as well when the valve is fully open removes the pressure from the valve stem. In between the valve stem has a seal, that leaks under the high pressure. You want to fully open these valve's and back seat (apply the same force as when closed) the full open seat so it does not leak.

For the acetylene bottle, that is much lower pressure, and should only be opened 1/4 turn, so under an emergency it can be closed quickly. 1972 shop class had a good instructor.

I turn the acetylene off first, as I don't like black soot, and its smell.

Acetylene is explosive with a wide range of air mix ratios, you don't want it to be filling a room while screwing around shutting the oxygen off.
 
I think when Heliarc was invented they were still using the helium for flight. Dad was welding with helium for the Army Air Force during WWII, but actually learned the procedure before the war, '39 or '40. If I remember his stories correctly they were using helium shielded arc for aluminium airframe work, but it's a little late to ask him now.

Dennis

Clearly. My Dad was a construction inspector, 1931-1936, NACA Langley, the Full Scale Tunnel, then in charge of the Diesels that powered it for a while.

Graf Von Zeppelin's airships were extensively riveted. Our first ones were WWI war reparations, so the same again. Welding came later.

Our access to Helium was unique, BTW. Certain petroleum wells, Texas, IIRC, had it as a trapped byproduct. We used it for semi-rigid airships (blimps) long after the last dirigible was gone. AFAIK, we still DO for tethered radar-balloons and such.
 
Several reasons. One is "cheap investment" when use is infrequent and jobs are of small size.

My case it was tinier yet.

Our Ox-Hydrogen rig was a box with an electric power cord. It used pure water.

The target was Iridium-stiffened Platinum jewelry, sometimes tiny built-from-wire pendents , earrings, or prong settings for diamonds on rings. Platinum-group metals need serious heat, and our "normal" bench rigs were only Oxy-natural gas.

Once hired a recent Russian immigrant who had worked in a factory that had used mouth operated "blowpipes". Fuel was low-octane motor gasoline. Shocking change for HIM, what WE had.

Gas brazing and welding offers a LOT more fuel choices than just Acetylene, may not even involve Oxygen.

Its 2018 bro... you can buy a small inverter dc tig setup for cheaper than a gas welding rig, operating costs are cheaper too. Back when you cranked up your stories on the AM and went to work in your shed things were a little different.
 
LOL - Too true.

I think the wide range of opinion is because you can get away with a wide range of techniques and still successfully melt things together. They are not all equally good, but the folks who favor one way or another will defend "theirs" just like political opinions.

Amen to that. One shop I worked in we had Blacksmiths. They were responsible for anything on the truck chassis. Tim was schooled in Ireland and was a true Blacksmith in every sense of the word. Then they hired George. George was a nice guy but NOT a Blacksmith. Tim was supposed to teach/train George. Someone asked George one day "How's it going , is Tim teaching you a lot"? George said Tim showed him three times how to make these rings we needed and three times Tim showed him a different method. Tim wasn't being an asshole he just had so many ways of doing things. It's a shame so much knowledge gets wasted in the grave.
 
After spending about 35 years welding on a home shop level I purchased this book:Welder's Handbook: A Guide to Plasma Cutting, Oxyacetylene, ARC, MIG and TIG Welding, Revised and Updated: Richard Finch: 9781557885135: Amazon.com: Books

I read it cover to cover and was amazed at how much I didn't know about welding, in spite of working in a big plant with dozens of journeyman welders and picking their brains as much as I could. This book covers all types of welding and puts them into an easy to understand format. Some sections I read more than once to make sure that I had it right.

No connections to the author or anything else to do with the book. Just an impressed reader.
 
Look up welddotcom on u-tube and check out what Bob Moffatt has to say. I'm not sure I would trust many others to learn gas welding from. You can also catch him on IG. It is a dangerous medium and something to treat with great respect because one little mistake and you won't be eating breakfast tomorrow.
 
Its 2018 bro... you can buy a small inverter dc tig setup for cheaper than a gas welding rig, operating costs are cheaper too. Back when you cranked up your stories on the AM and went to work in your shed things were a little different.

We do not all work on pickup-trucks.

It's is one of several 1/8" long-axis 10% Iridium-Platinum pear shaped wire loops and I need several prongs on it - just the side stones, BTW "bro"

Which TiG rig that needs Telesights to work with in that tiny space do YOU use?

Cheating to ask Kevin Potter.

:)
 
well, no, helium does not permeate metal, and yes, oxy-methane does melt platinum, and easily melts platinum "solders"... 14, 15, 1650... considered by many to be the hot setup for repair work, with a Hoke torch..
 
We do not all work on pickup-trucks.

It's is one of several 1/8" long-axis 10% Iridium-Platinum pear shaped wire loops and I need several prongs on it - just the side stones, BTW "bro"

Which TiG rig that needs Telesights to work with in that tiny space do YOU use?

Cheating to ask Kevin Potter.

:)

Thats one of those situations where if you happen to be needing to weld microscopic platinum wire you aren't on a forum asking for gas welding basics... and in 2018 my basic advice is still buy a tig.
 








 
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