Dust Collection System Recommendations
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  1. #1
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    I'm considering a possible dust collection system in my small machine shop (1200sf), wondering what people's luck has been with basic systems. My budget is ~$1000 for the system and accessories.

    It appears that I'll have quite a bit of G10 and carbon-fiber machine work this Fall, and I want to get a system that can have run continously and close to the spindle. I want to collect the majority of the dust made and NOT just have the dust system recycle it back into my shop. Any recommendations on filter sizing, brands and their duty cycles...and what's quietest?

    PS: I was thinking of using Loc-Line's big 2" rigid line to get the vaccuum nozzle close to the spindle. Anyone use this product yet?

    LocLine

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    You definately need something for the G10. Possibly a space suit. Not to mention the fact you'll be glass beading your equipment.
    Are you planning on using a shop vac or something like a Torit?
    I've always been somewhat afraid of shop vacs used for this purpose-- explosions?
    I asked a similar question just before the gen'l forum snafu-
    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ub...37.html#000000
    I'm looking into what Barry Milton posted, but you need to remove the glass filled dust at the source.
    Sam

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    Better get in touch with Dustkopf or other major supplier of dust collection systems. G10 and carbon fiber is nasty stuff to breathe. You want a 100% capture system, a cyclone, and a 0.3 micron exit filter whose return air meets EPA standards and is suitable for humans. You want to work with competent suppliers. A package system intended for benign wood dust from Grizzly might work then again it may give you trouble you never anticipated.

    I very much doubt if you can buy a package system like that for $1000 but if you shop carefully you might. Remember that filters and maintentence will be an ongoing expense.

    Ondeida has excellent for the money small scale dust collection equipment and they offer a handy design service too. The secret to effective dust collection is high suction pressure and short duct runs plus a convenient and simple to use means of clean-out.

    Will you be using coolant? I would think it must be for FRP if only a mist system. Be sure the DC people you work with know this will be a wet pick-up.

    Your DC will sooner or later appear on EPA's radar. Don't cut any corners they may be vigilant for.

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    http://www.agetmfg.com/AgetSite/cohistory.html
    that's about the same as a Torit (I'd never heard of them)
    http://www.oneida-air.com/

    I bet they're both (and a Torit is) about as quiet as a jet airliner.

    note: the G10 parts I work with cannot have coolant used on them (hot stamp machine tooling)

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    I've been milling/turning G10 for a couple years now. I get several jobs a year (and I'm just low quantity anyhow), but I have been in the past cutting with mist coolant (heavy amount) or flood coolant (in the lathe). I use a resporator and glove...and it makes a pretty good mess, but the dust isn't atrocious.

    My idea for a small dust collection system is so that I can machine it dry. Now are you all saying that a decent woodworking dust collection system isn't up to snuff (i.e. vaccuum pressure, filtration)? Because if it's not, and god forbid it makes matters worse...then it doesn't make sense to change up what I have been doing (for the roughly 10-15 days out the year I might machine G10).

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    I understand it's acceptable to use distilled or demineralized water on G10 provided it gets a drying cycle aafterwards. It's hell on tooling though. Torit was the other name I was trying to thik of earlier.

    You might consider a dry suction and introduce mist at the cyclone preferably along the drop tube axis but below it. Entrain the dust particles in water droplets and the hazard goes 'way down.

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    Forrest, then he still needs the space suit.

    When I have to make the press parts out of G10, I use a shop vac with a hose at the cutting operation, and another hose on the exhaust side of the vac venting outside. Mask, long sleeves, etc.
    And I charge for it.
    I try not to do it.

    If it's a day in, day out...

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    I use a cyclonic vaccum on our glass beader with the exhaust directed outside with PVC pipe. Works fine.

    my wheels don't slow me down

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    I second Forrest's comment about making sure the dust collector vendor knows about any coolant/water mist introduced with the dust. Water with the dust may require a totally different choice of filtration material. Dust collector bags that work well with dry material will likely give trouble when used wet. The reverse may also be true, so you may be locked into one method of working (wet or dry) by the type of dust collector you use.

    The most important (and most neglected) part of any specification or request for quote is the part that describes the service the equipment will be put to. Describe the material you will be collecting, the size of the chips/dust, wet or dry, etc. No need for great detail, but set down as much information as you can, in an organized manner.

    Thermo1

  10. #10
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    Here is the place to start - http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm It is the dust that you can't see which will get you. The danger range is 10 microns down to 0.5 microns. The Torit filters recommended are documented down to 0.2 microns. If you build it yourself, you will have change left over from your $1000. If you want to really play it safe, add a self-contained battery operated face shield (3M, etc.). Lots of woodworkers use them becaues wooddust is an allergen to some and the airflow keeps the old glasses fog-free.

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    The good news for you is used dust collectors seem to be a dime a dozen these days. I LOW BALLED the last sealed bid at Boeing on dust collectors and ended up with 7 out of 8 of the Torit dust collectors they had. Torit and Dustkop make really nice collectors, they are well supported. Torit makes combination mist-dust collectors ranging from small to huge. Do an ebay search for Torit. You'll be amazed at how much you can buy for not much money.

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    OT but I had no idea what G10 was so I
    googled it and found .125 rod @ $2.94/ft...?
    Seems pretty precious, why is it so much and what do you make with it?

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    G10 is military-grade fiberglass (I think). Strength's on par with mild steel, non-conductive, and flame retarding. I like using for my projects because of it's strength and it's compatible with MRI's. It machines easy (albeit, hard on tooling), doesn't de-laminate easy, and holds good tolerances...and it's cheap for it's strength.

    BUT, if you don't wear gloves and a resparator... you're liable to run out your building screaming and looking to throw yourself in the closest body of water [img]smile.gif[/img] Ohh, and also...it makes a mess...

    I'll keep my eye out for a Torit. I'm going to get hammered for this comment, but Grizzly seems to make a decent looking cyclone system, that they advertise pretty well with charts, figures and comparisons against Oneida.

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    There are quite a few essential parts needed for 100% (or nearly 100%) capture & containment of hazardous dusts.

    It starts with the dust pickup (vacuum nozzle). The best ones are purpose built using one of the NACA duct designs http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/ The purpose of a NACA duct is to increase the flowrate of air through it while not disturbing the boundary layer. The duct inlet should conform closely to the part being machined, and should be positioned as near the part as possible. Loc-Line was mentioned, but it has high frictional losses compared to a smooth wall, smooth transition NACA duct.

    Next is the ductwork. Most commercial & small shop systems use smooth wall galvanized ductwork. Spiral Manufacturing has good info on their site http://www.spiralmfg.com/fpipef.htm A typical small shop system would use 5" or 6" ducting to assure that internal duct velocity remains high enough so that all the collected dust is transported to the collector.

    The most popular collectors today are the cyclone design. They use a large, radial, pressure fan mounted on top of a swirl seperation chamber. Heavier particles drop into a collection canister, fine particles continue to a cartridge filter (or filters). Oneida offers parts, complete systems, & a free design service (hoping you'll buy their system ) http://www.oneida-air.com/ They've been around for a long time and are well respected in small shop dust collection. Take a look at their Pro 1500 System ($1433) or the Pro 2000 ($1703) - be sure to tell the applications engineer thay you're collecting G10 & Carbon Fiber.

    You may well be able to get a high efficiency system for under $2000, including ductwork, if you do the installation (which is not rocket science). As long as you pay close attention to every inch of the system, from inlet to filter, you should end up with a system that gives near 100% capture.

    ----------------------
    Barry Milton

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    Go to http://www.oneida-air.com/ I have two friends with the 2HP model and the systems work VERY well. I will be installing one of their 2 HP systems when time will allow. Price is not that bad for the quality, which is very good.

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    Barry,

    Can straight PVC work instead of galvanized duct work? It would only be about a 25' shot from the mill to the vaccuum unit. And if that Loc-Line system is only 2.5" dia., I wouldn't needs a ductwork system any bigger than that to take the dust away. Or would I?

    I really want to do that Loc-Line hosing (even with it's pressure drop) because it seems to be a more realistic means for positioning and getting the hose up and out of the way when I don't need it.

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    Can straight PVC work instead of galvanized duct work?
    It can work, but it's far from ideal. I had 4" PVC ducting in my last shop, similar length run to yours. Static charges will build up in a PVC system, which means running a bare copper ground wire inside the piping - without the ground you'll certainly get some shocks & you'll possibly have an explosion. Google 'pvc dust collector' for lots of posts on the hazards.

    PVC piping is much harder to open up when you get a clogged pipe, and sooner or later that will happen. With metal, remove four flange bolts, clear the jam, all done. With PVC, the battle begins

    Metal corner joints (45*, 90*, Y, etc.) are available in a wide range of sizes, radius length, etc. PVC is limited.

    ...if that Loc-Line system is only 2.5" dia., I wouldn't need a ductwork system any bigger than that to take the dust away. Or would I?
    The size of the dust pickup has almost nothing to do with the size of the ductwork, except that it must be large enough that the collector is not starved for air. The reason most ducting is 4" or 5" (or larger) is because there is almost zero flow next to the inside wall of the pipe - engineers call this the boundary layer effect. It applies to all moving fluids, including air. Putting a 2.5" duct on a large collector will result in flow so low that material will settle out in the duct. I don't believe Oneida or any other manufacturer will adivse sizing below 4" - Delta recommended 5" minimum when I installed my first system.

    You might want to use a short piece of 4" or 5" flex hose for the short drop from the ductwork to the collection inlet. Flex has high frictional losses, so keep the length as short as possible. When finished with the G10 or Carbon, you could remove the flex (if it's held on with a band clamp) and the machine would be free for other jobs.

    -----------------------------
    Barry Milton

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    Now and then you'll find a fairly new dust collector on ebay, and they go for about 15-20% of retail. Cleanup can be a chore though (just did this on a Torit).

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    A few years ago we did a search for companies that make dust collection systems. It is online at http://www.carbideprocessors.com/Coolant/book/24.htm The ones that are really good for free information are labeled that way.

    When I bought the new building I got a lot of help from the State of Washington on making it both safe and legal plus the guy, Pat Mahaney, was really good at telling me what I did and didn't need.

    Tom

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    fyi, avoid flexble ducts, the are like a 90% restriction to your air flow. If you use PVC pipe, be sure to run a grounding wire through it to ground the static.


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