Help please guys, a sticky problem.

I was asked to post this by a close business associate, the lady really needs our help guys, so can we?............. be nice, this lady gets my bills through their system that quickly I sometimes have to ask myself if I'd presented it.
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Gentlemen, I heard about your site and forum from Limy Sami and have asked
him to post this, I’m not sure if this is even the correct forum for my problem, so
apologies if I’ve made the wrong choice for as the title says, it is a ''sticky problem.''

We’re a general jobbing and agricultural engineers with five full on the shop
floor mainly concentrating on welding and fabrication, and several free lancers,
or agency staff as required.

One of the free lancers, a machinist comes in on average two days a week, and
has done for over four years, and this is where the problem lies.

He’s a good machinist, steady, reliable, and a great asset to the company, and
gay, and ‘’out’’ though he doesn’t broadcast it, this has been no problem until
recently.
There’ve been changes in our management structure and our new general
manager has taken against him, causing all sorts of problems, the machinist has
been around machine shops most of his life and is well able to look after himself
while giving as good as he gets.

However the situation has progressed past the usual ribbing and banter, and is
poisoning the whole place and our valuable machinist is on the point of leaving,
not to return
My boss doesn’t want to lose him, and for reasons I can’t go in to, isn’t in a
position to bring the general manager in to line. Nor is the machinist willing to make a stand, or be involved in any way, which I completely understand and have to agree with, the problem is with us and not him.

I apologise if this is a bit drawn out but I thought maybe one of your members from a more enlightened part of the world
would have experience of such matters and could possibly come up with some
helpful suggestions, thanking you for your time. PP

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So guys, there you go, those of you that have read my posts will realise I'm not a people type person (too much time being a grumpy old git working on my own) so can offer her little help,I know of the guy in question, and he's good, and what's more why should he suffer for a jerk with attitude, so over to you, thanks. Sami

Why would the boss not be in a position to bring the general manager in to line? If not he is opening himself up to a sexual harassment suit that could cost him plenty. By the boss doing nothing, in the eyes of the govt, he is condoning it. At least that is the way that it is in the US

If I understand the facts, it's like this:

machinist reports to general manager
general manager reports your boss

general manager is the problem

machinist doesn't want to fight his supervisor

your boss can't or won't do anything to control his subordinate. that's really weird, really wrong, and probably illegal. but I take it as a fact.


In the US there would be legal recourse for the machinist, but it could not be practically applied if neither the victim nor the wrongdoers' supervisor is willing to exercise it. Only option is to call in the govt. agency that enforces such things. Most likely somebody loses their job at that point. Or quits.

England might be similar, but this ain't the place for legal advice anyway.

Short-term choices: give the machinist more money to compensate him for the grief. or give the machinist a way to work off-site. Or kiss the machinist goodbye.

Longterm issues: In the US, all of those short-term suggestions will eventually land the general manager and your boss in hot water. Because they all involve management tolerating discrimination. But you set up the problem as one in which your boss DOES tolerate discrimination.

It's a bugger, ain't it?

Still, if you give the machinist so much more money that he ends up making more than the general manager. at least hourlt, there's a certain rough justice

I can only echo SamH.

Yup, if this was in the US the machinist in question would own that company in short order and would have a line of lawyers out the door waiting to take the case.

+2 for Sam H's advice.
The owner needs to grow a set (if it's a man) and put the GM in his place before he loses the whole shop.

SamH and SeaFarmer are right. I've made just about every hiring and firing mistake you can make, and it's clear to me now that the only solution in a circumstance like you described is to fire the GM and fast. The pain of doing without the GM for a while until he is replaced will be temporary, the alternative is to slowly dissolve the business until there is nothing to save. Bastards like that never seem to leave on their own.

The guy's going to leave.....your company seems dysfunctional. After the jerk drives out one good machinist someone else will pop up on his radar screen and it'll happen again. If the owner lets this guy have this kind of power he is 100% responsible,liable and pathetic. Sorry...just how I see it.

Unless your "boss" and the employee are "involved" outside of the shop, he is in position to bring the GM into line, or boot him. Thats the only thing "sticky" I can dream up in this situation. Obviously something is amuck between the 3 of them somehwere, or this wouldnt be an issue at all. Unless he's just chicken, stupid, or both
Jim

Yep, my thought too enginebuilder. I don't know the UK laws but here it would prove to be a very interesting court case indeed. I believe there is much that is not said in this deal. I think the expresion "sticky wicket" may fit here.

situation like this I would work on consensus building, if you feel strongly and can see what is right for the company and the prople involved you may work behind the scene talking with the people not directly involved and see if there is a consensus point of view. start with the people you trust the most and who you may ask for support. from there people involved may put subtle pressure on the boss to do what is right, may make the GM feel ostracized for his out of line behavior, and/or give moral support to the machinist to help balance his experience with the work place.
good luck

Is the GM related to the company owner?? Maybe this is why he can't do anything to bring him in line.

Jackmo

Sometimes these situations are deeper and more convoluted meet the eye.
But without a doubt this is a management problem!
I am an electrical engineer and only worked a short time as a Boilermaker in Seattle early in my career.
It could be a brutal trade for any employee that was out of the (cast) of Iron worker.
The best medicine is:
Sense of humor!
Sense of responsability on management's part.
And,
If the employee is in fact excellent, lose the pin head!!!
paulf

The REAL reality in internal company dynamics is that it ALL flows DOWNHILL. Honey or s**t. It does not go uphill or sideways. Employees cannot fix management problems. Management problems can ONLY be fixxed by higher level personnel. Almost all management problems come down to money or power. Mix in the arrogance that most managers bring to the job, and fixxing problems regarding workers becomes a no-win situation. Middle managers take their cues from upper levels, and I have seen companies wither away from loss of critical talent, rather than rein in or remove idiots.

Managers like this have to have a target to focus on, so expect continuing problems with workers as long as he remains. If you check his background from management perspective, you probably won't hear any complaints. Talk to workers he had, and you will find a different picture. By the time someone gets to his position, they will be set in their habits. So, if you look, you will find a consistent trail of employee treatment.

For more perspective on manager/worker traits, look for a couple of books: Dinosaur Brains, and Neanderthals At Work. Same authors. I'll have to find my copies.......

We kow the GM doesn't like him, for some reason.

We know your "boss" doesn't want to lose him.

What, in England, is a GM in relationship to YOUR boss? Your boss is below or above him? If below, unless he can get the GM's superiors to discipline HIM, which you say no one wants to pass the problem upstream. I don't know if that would help. Hey, it's only one man.

If the Boss is over the GM, and he won't squelch it, it is probably because Momma would jump on him, it is her son or nephew, peace and harmony in the family.

This is not in the US. I don't know if the UK has all the goofball laws we have here in the US.
Good greif, be a hoot if the GM is also "queer" ( a word allowed to be used, which see, the Pittsburgh Steelers, where a player called another player a "faggot", and the whole team said it would be okay to call him "queer", but not "*********" or "faggot".)

They might have the same "lover", and it is a spat.

Other than that, he should just punch him in the mouth and leave your place of employ. He is, according to you, a valued part time employee, a good machinist, your company is the loser.

Once he is gone, the prick will most likely latch onto the next employee for his attention.

He should be the one to get the boot.

Cheers,

George

All I can say is good luck. Smallshop has a good point here & unfortunatly it is true. In these cases, usually the problem is really underneath the surface & the gm could be exploiting what is on top. This guy is trying to change everyones opinion on the guy by character deformation & is trying hard. For example, maybe the new gm is still "in" the closet & maybe the employee who is "out" knows already. The gm feels threatened by him & thinks he might talk & soon the wife, kids, boss & whole world know. The solution to his problem is to make this guy's job miserable until he leaves. Or he could simply be threatened by his skills & feels that his job security is in jepordy. What ever it is, there is more too it than the simple fact that he is gay. I am straight, non biased & supervise a shop on 2nd shift. I will tell you one thing, if I had a choice between five gay guys in the shop that knew what they were doing & getting product out the door as opposed too five supermodels standing around doing nothing, I would take the first option. When it comes down to making a shop the all mighty buck, sometimes you just have look past things like this no matter how you feel personally. It is your gm that has the real problem, not the machinist.

I'm not really sure about the organizational relationship between the GM and your boss but I'm guessing that your boss reports either directly or indirectly to the GM?

It can be very trying for a supervisor or a manager when their boss (or their boss' boss) has a problem with one of their subordinates. In a larger company it's best to get it out on the table with human resources and then get out of the way, AFTER talking to the offending person in a confidential manner if at all possible.

Next best would be talking to their boss -- again after talking directly to the offending person if it's safe to do so.

If this GM is the ranking individual at your facility and if you have no corporate HR ties you are in a tough spot. Some companies have ombudsmen for just this purpose.

The machinist's direct supervior should still have a confidential talk with the GM (or an intermediate manager if there is one) and with the machinist. (S)he should then very carefully document both conversations for future reference because this sorta thing can get real nasty...

LeftHander

...Mix in the arrogance that most managers bring to the job, and fixxing problems regarding workers becomes a no-win situation...

Click to expand...

This alone is a terribly ignorant and arrogant comment. You didn't write something like "...that most managers I have worked with seem to bring to the job..." which might make sense.

Instead you made an overly broad and in the end, rediculous comment that you simply lack the data to accurately make...

In the UK this falls in to the "sexual discrimination" category and we have very strict employment laws which are tilted in the employees favour in these cases.If the guy can prove harrasment he can resign and take his case to the employment tribunal where they almost certainly will find against the employer.There is a public body set up to advise and support an employee in these cases and if they feel he has sufficient grounds for a claim will take the case to the tribunal on his behalf.There is no limitation on the damages that can be awarded in these cases and there have been a few in recent years where damages have exceeded $1,000,000.
A company who fail to react to an employees complaint are in deep trouble and basically have an undefensible case on their hands as these laws are well documented.
For impartial,correct and up to date advice on the legal standing of a complaint like this both an employee and an employer can independently contact ACAS who will not ask for names or any identifying information.
Mark.

Sack the GM, he is a liability to the company. He has,nt a leg to stand on.