semi OT, clarinet springs

Friend of my kid mentioned the other week that she could not play in the band because her clarinet was missing a screw, and the music shops they took it to did not have the right screws and did not want to work on it. To some extent I suspect her mom probably was not able to afford it, or be able to afford running around much to look. Silly me, I piped up and mentioned that there are lots of screws that can be modified to fit other stuff and maybe it was worth another look.

Purists please don't jump on me, it's a plastic body school type instrument and if I don't make it work chances are it will go to the fleamarket & she won't have anything.
I have some #2 screws that can be remachined to match the missing items.

But, there is a missing (broken) needle spring as well. I've been searching on the web and can't find how they are normally installed and (staked?) into place? Thinking of using a similar size needle, tempering it, and making it work, but how are they fastened in?

For those that are going to ask whether its worth it, the joints (seals?) look good, the pads look okay, the corks under the keys looks rough, it's going to have to be that way for now.

smt

They are, in my experience, a light press (pushed in with a light grip with pliers). I wouldn't bother pressing though. A little loctite or similar should do it s'long as it stays away from rotating parts,and you're sure it won't break. It's (obviously) not a critical thing--you just have to have a reasonable spring rate (reasonable covers quite a range for most people when the alternative is no instrument at all).

Sounds like you're doing a good deed--the school band was a very important thing for me from 5th grade through college, I think it'll mean a lot.

-Justin

Stephen,
I think that you should be Googling for books on
"Wind Instruments"
It is a long lifetime since I restored an old Albert or Simple System clarinet but they are pretty straightforward. You could have used an ordinary sewing needle for a spring. As was said, they go in with a push with pliers.

My wife plays clarinets right up to bas, contra bass and contra alto as well as the family of saxophones up to bass.
Yonks ago, she was given a book called
'Instrument repair for the music teacher' by Burton Stanley Publisher- Alfred Publishing

Maybe this is the level that would suffice.

With pad leakages, I 'invented' a battery, flash light bulb and longish soldered wires to go down the bores to check seating.

Unfortunately, my memory precludes anyone other than 'Sam Ash' in NY iteslf but someone like "Ferries" has repair tools on your side.

Hopefully this will be useful stuff.

Cheers

Norman

Stephen,

A good source for wire for small springs is the display of "piano wire" in any hobby shop. It's available in many different diameters.

Bruce Johnson

Stephen.
I used to repair woodwinds for a living many years ago.
First let me mention that if I had a nickel for every instrument where the nearby handyman had a go at it first...
Having said that, just be mindful so that you don't cause more future repairs trying to fix the first problem and you should be fine.

1. A woodwind repair shop has a selection of springs varying in thickness of every .003" or so. The chances of finding a sewing needle the correct thickness are kind of slim. But even if you find one, they are more easily bent (less springy) than true needle springs so would likely be a temporary fix until a real spring can be found. Your best bet is to buy one from a shop once you get the broken piece out. From an instrument repair shop it might cost all of $.50 unless they are greedy.

2. Extracting the old spring is usually easy, but sometimes they don't cooperate and the task becomes a real pain. An instrument shop will have a pair of pliers special for the job. It has a point on one face to push the pin out, and a hole or slot in the other face for clearance on the other side of the post. Short of one of those, you can just tap lightly with a pointed small rod (like a scribe point) to back the chunk of spring out. Be sure to tap on the correct side! (See #3). Back up the post with some sort of "anvil" so you don't break the post off the body of the clarinet. Usually once you get it started, you can carefully pull it out with a small pair of pliers.

3. The springs are just pushed into the post. First, nip to spring to the correct length. The back end of the spring is simply slightly flattened with a hammer & anvil so the flattened end pushes tightly into the hole in the post. To insert, you slip the pointed end through the post and pull through (a "sewing" action) until the flattened end touches. Then press the remaining flattened end in the rest of the way. If a technician found loctite in there, you would likely be scolded. To extract, push the spring out the opposite way.

4. Once the spring is inserted, just bend it slightly to give the key the desired tension.

Replacing a spring at a repair shop might be a cheap as $5 depending on the shop. It's usually pretty quick & easy. However if it isn't pretty straightforward it can be a real pain. Always keep mindful about damaging something else while trying to fix the original problem. Know when to stop.

On the screws, usually there are only a couple sizes of pivot screw on a clarinet, so you can use an existing good one for a blueprint to copy.

Worn key corks can make the instrument a little noisy, but for a couple exceptions they won't affect playability.

Pads can be checked with a "feeler gauge". I liked to use old audio cassette tape for feeler gauge stock. Cheap, easy to replace (which you do often) and works excellent. I wouldn't recommend getting into this unless you are interested in developing a new hobby. It takes a bit of practice to get used to analyzing the pad seat with the feeler gauge, then if you find something off you need to know what to do and that's even more tricky. Checking with a "leak light" works OK with leathery saxophone pads, but is not very effective on clarinets in my experience (pads are too translucent)

Here's the source for instrument repair tools & parts:
http://www.ferreestools.com/

Good luck.
And for Don's benefit... "Hope this helps"

"Replacing a spring at a repair shop might be a cheap as $5 depending on the shop. It's usually pretty quick & easy. However if it isn't pretty straightforward it can be a real pain. Always keep mindful about damaging something else while trying to fix the original problem. Know when to stop."

Yeah, if you really want to be helpful, take it to an instrument repairman yourself and pay to have it fixed correctly.

Randy (former music teacher)

P.S.
One important thing I left out.
Clarinets are relatively durable as woodwinds go, but one thing about woodwinds is they are all temperamental. When I played I worked on my own clarinet every couple weeks or so. Always an adjustment to do here & there.

A young student usually couldn't tell the difference between a loose, leaky horn and one that's tip-top because they are still wrestling with the other fifty variables involved in playing. If they claim that an instrument with a broken spring, missing screws and chipped corks is otherwise playing OK, there's a 98% chance that they are wrong and just don't know it.

In other words, your efforts likely will result in a trip to the shop to get the clarinet fully checked out & working after all.

I'm not trying to talk you out of giving it a go, but knowing this ahead of time might save some disappointment. As long as you're careful and don't break anything else in the process, the effort is noble and might even save a few bucks in sum. Plus, you might be lucky and end up in the other 2%.

Regarding "leaving it to the professionals". Some repairmen will enthusiastically proclaim that noone should ever attempt repairing an instrument unless they are trained to do so. On the other end, one would think since the thing is just a collection of simple materials and dealing with them should involve pretty standard techniques. The truth lies somewhere in between. Since clarinets have a pretty simple mechanism, that's usually where a beginner starts to learn the trade anyway. If it was a sax you are considering, I'd automatically recommend hauling it in because the mechanism is just too complex and delicate for a first try and you'd almost certainly end up worse off than you started.

Just use your head and stop before you get above your raisin. Asking about it here first shows an attitude of caution and that's a good sign. You're probably not the type who'd fit in with the few dozen guys I experienced who thought it would be a good idea to try twisting a stuck trumpet mouthpiece off with a pair of channel-locks. For the record, that's a really quick way to turn $5 into $100 in less than 10 seconds.

My apologies but I structured my reply to Stephen knowing the quality of his workmanship in the past. A sh1tey B flat student clarinet would be child's play(?) Oops?

So is it to be the Plane Man's Guide to Musical Instrument Repair?( Oh, yes!)

Norm

From past experiance, you will find out how many thumbs are on your hand when you work on a clarinet. I was smart emough to stop when I realized I was over my head. I had the pro recork and tweak my daughters Yamaha. Made a big differance in how it played, and I didn't get blamed for making her play bad.
Vinito my hats off to you and those who mastered that craft.
I'll stick to the drums, they're easy to fix.

Thanks for the tips so far, including the one about pushing the remains of the old spring out the correct direction.

To answer a few questions, I have absolutely no interest in becoming a woodwind or any other wind instrument repair person, hobby or otherwise. My fingers are too big and my eyes are getting old. Not only that, the more I get into this, the more there is wrong, but not insurmoutable. The point is to get an instrument that she can noodle away on, and then it is up to her to take it from there.

Really, the important concept that needs to be conveyed, is that some adults do follow through in a timely way on "promises" ill advised, poorly conceived, or based on very incomplete information. Just that it is not something that was said, and then somehow disappears through the cracks. Point 2 is that there are ways around many problems. Sometimes the best approach is to just start. This girl is not Stanley Drucker's lost daughter, she might not even do much more with the instrument, but at least it will not be "someone elses fault" and perhaps merely the idea of having support for an interest will be useful. If she actually takes it to the next step and needs a better instrument of more professional overhaul, that can be worried about later.

One painful memory from a few years ago was a kid in my son's elementary school. Not really a friend, I think he was younger than my son. But he had this trumpet and was really proud of it. carried it around, sort of strutted it in the school concerts, just was really happy with it. Then we (wife & I) started to notice he didn't seem to have the horn anymore and was not quite his "perky" self. Turns out mom could not pay rental on it anymore. What the heck do you do in a case like that, no actual personal connection or anything?

Anyway, lets keep it to the mechanical issues. I called a music store and they do have the needle springs, so will try them on Monday. Removed the old stub by pressing it out with a purpose turned punch. Can make the screws more or less "easily" so that's not a problem.

New problem: one of the posts is stripped out of the body. Had remnents of what looked like Elmers glue infusion. Have cleaned to clean plastic. What is a suitable repair procedure here?

Reminder: the trajectory this student level plastic instrument is currently on would be next step sold at the fleamarket (literally) to some unsuspecting buyer, then probably either the parts shelf if someone takes it for a quote on repairs, the attic, or the dumpster.

Norm, thanks for the vote of confidence! At least I have a strong acquaintance with african blackwood.

smt

"Vinito my hats off to you and those who mastered that craft."

Not sure I'd say I mastered it. My crowning achievement was restoring a soprano sax for a local pro. It came in a corroded, dented up old beater and when I was done (much, much too later) it was tight, smooth, quiet and had a gorgeous sterling plated body with gold plated bell. Even the mouthpiece had a large broken chunk out of it that had to be repaired, and that's a touchy endeavor indeed. A master would have finished it in a month or two, and much less if sending it out for plating didn't take so long. Anyway, that instrument allowed me to "retire" from the practice on a good note. I did many restorations, but none were so extensive. Some guys in the field do that kind of thing pretty regularly.

Woodwind repair is what led me into machining and I like doing that now. My style of machining has a certain evidence of a history with instrument repair that's a little hard to explain. Mostly I guess it's that I often do hand work that isn't normally part of a machinist's regular fare, though plenty of you guys do similar stuff and beyond.

I was thinking about my "collection of simple materials" comment above and thinking about my shop at the time. It's amazing the conglomeration of items you end up with after a few years of working with wind instruments. For instance, I had some twenty pairs of special pliers and fifteen or so screwdrivers just for working on instruments, and that's just scratching the surface. Of course, what you really need to make most broken instruments live again will fit in a tackle box. Those other tools really do make the right job go much smoother though. I guess instrument techs are tool junkies just like machinists.

The repertoir of methods is similar. Just a common task like correctly replacing a tenon cork on a clarinet would take quite a bit to explain, but to an onlooker it would appear like fiddling a bit with a strip of cork, some glue, and sandpaper. This is, of course, what it is, but there are a dozen ways to do it wrong too.

Anyway, apologies for hijacking the thread. Saturday syndrome.

No offense meant Norm. Just that using locktite would be one of those things that would take more time/$ later when flaring the end of the spring flat with a hammer would work too without filling the hole, etc. Plus, a future technician wouldn't notice anything amiss. I imagine that Stephen would be fine, and if the choice is between the flea market and the child participating in music, then I'd dunk the whole thing in loctite if it worked.

stephen
I completely understand what you mean about following thru on your promises. Regardless of the future outcome, you have eliminated 1 possible roadblock to a potential virtuoso.
And speaking as a musician who still plays out as a weekend warrior (with all the aches and pains), every child should have that chance.

Stephen,
Modesty, modesty? My memory is-- well, what did he say?

Seriously, some plastic clarinets are washers to buy new. My missus had a insane moment and bought a Honky Konky red one. It plays well enough. There was a craze to have red ones for dances, white ones for weddings and black ones for funerals. I would suspect that the post 'hole' will be in thermoplastic - so a little jiggle with a hot soldering iron and re-tap might suffice. You could put in a twist of soft solder or copper wire. You are bodging which isn't you.

Blackwood is now so scarce that the turnings are re-use with epoxy resin. I am sitting with a bundle of it and rosewood and almost scared to use it.

I hope the repair lasts until it get to the flea market!

Cheers

Norm

So are you suggesting loctite for the stripped post? I have some of their plastic glue, and of course "superglue" cyanoacrylics.

(Looks like a bunch of us were posting at the same moment. The loctite Q was to Vinito. I'll consider Norms, well, considered suggestions!)

Thanks!
smt

Damn. A stripped post.

This isn't too bad to fix really. One of those cases for being really careful.

For a cheap student clarinet, just carefully fill the hole with a small amount of epoxy (JB weld will do). Before it sets up insert the post. Before it sets up, install the key (leave spring free or remove if it's a flat spring). Before it sets up, make sure the mating surface is parallel with the end of the key (square it up). Use a rubber band or two to hold it in place while it sets up. Maybe don't use 60-second epoxy for this one.

One cosmetic trick is to add a little black powdered tempera paint while mixing so the epoxy matches the clarinet body, but that's not worth doing unless you have some around already.

Of course, besides keeping epoxy away from where you don't want it, wipe any excess epoxy away with paper towel, Q-tip or whatever so it looks good. Then check alignment again.

The pointed pivot screws (likely what you have) are screwed in/out to adjust so the key pivots smoothly but without binding. When attaching the key while the epoxy sets up, make sure neither pivot screw is screwed in so far that it pushes a space between the key and the post. Back them off so the key touches the post while the epoxy sets. Chances are once it's set up the key won't rub/bind on the post. If it does, just sand or file away a couple thousandths off the end of the key so it pivots freely again, then adjust your pivot screws so it's tight enough but still free-working.

The alternative is to fully fill the hole and machine to accept the post. That requires more brain power and the result is no better really. Note that some clarinets have screw-in posts and some are pressed in. this method will work for either type.

Norm's idea might work. There's probably just as much chance of cosmetic injury either way that can be avoided with a little care. Just use the same alignment cautions either way.

Oh, yea.
If it's a type of key with a hinge rod (solid screw through a hollow tube spanning from one post to the other) then disregard the "back off the pivot screw" stuff. Just slip it all together -still without the spring- and fully tighten the screw (hinge rod) down. These will align themselves so it's a little easier. Just use a rubber band to hold the post into the body while the epoxy sets up.

If you want, you can correspond with me by email.

Well, yes. Vinito, it's like this.
We have a metal contra bass clarinet in a long box. A 2 section Le Blanc from Paris and it's 45" long.
We all have our little troubles- 'cept some of them are a little longer than others

I keep mouthing suggestions. My last black eye has healed!

Great post and nice change

Norm

Oooh. Contrabass. Them are fun. Good for making the whole hall rumble.

Here's an idea. Why don't they make a two-case version for easier transporting those things.

Na. I guess when you get to the gig and only one half arrives, half-screwed is just as bad as totally screwed.

I'm leapfrogging and didn't see your last idea until I entered my last post. Edited to reflect.

Vinito, Boss Lady has Bass Sax too. Sold contra alto. Plays bari sax. Look her up in www.customshousecommunitybigband.co.uk
or www.musicholiday.com. Nah, scrub the latter, old buggerlugs is on it as well.
Money goes to help a little Austrian Church which is what life is all about.

Cheers

Norm

First he says "scrub the latter" then insures that I look at it anyway knowing an illiterate 'merican would have to find out what in blazes a "buggerlugs" was.
Clever.

All is forgiven though because now, after a lifelong search, I finally know that the meaning of life is helping a little Austrian Church. The only remaining trick is finding one of those around here.


One more thought Stephen.
When you flatten the end of the spring, it doesn't need much. Flatten it too much and not only will it be so tight that it's hard to press home, but it makes it more fragile so the extra additional pressure also has an easier time bending it over & breaking it. A loose spring is easy to remove for additional flattening if necessary. If they're just a few cents each, maybe pick up two just in case, unless a full one is already long enough to make two.

For now the post is set in black epoxy with rubber band & wedge to hold it down & straight. Parts are assembled to hold alignment and work smoothly. It is one with a long screw that goes the whole way through a couple keys.

Norm, I'd better call my blackwood source if things are as bad as you intimate. It's been a few years and to be plain, a couple plane sets worth are needed.

Fortunately the wood does not need to be long, but does need to be somewhat wide to get D totes out of (different tuning than clarinets ).
smt