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Spring Stainless Steel?

pak

Cast Iron
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Location
Miami Fl, USA
Hello,

Can anyone tell me the type of stainless steel used to make spear shafts - the ones that the dive shops call spring stainless steel. If I can locate the material, I would like to make a few of my own. You see, we loose a lot of them when we dive in deeper water and shoot the larger fish.

Regards,

Drew
 
If you loose a lot of them I'd use the cheapest junk you can sharpen. Slag even.

If you're worried about the ones you don't loose, rusting, paint them.

I know I didn't answer your question, but I have seen SS prices lately. Ouch@!

my 2¢
Doug S.
 
I just found this, http://www.abbiller.com/shafts.html , must be the type of thing you're using?

I'm guessing maybe a 420 or 440, but they have a poorer corrosion resistance. 17-4 is common and can be heat threated. I seriously don't understand why they would require any heat threat and why basic 304 wouldn't do just as well.
 
Doug S,

Good thought, but when we were younger, we tried this and experienced two issues. First, if the shaft is not spring steel, even a medium sized fish can bend it like a pretzel when he ducks into the closest reef, making it unusable. Second, these shafts get pretty beat up around the reef rock. We would have to paint or cosmoline them after every dive, otherwise they immediately rust and stain the deck. We found it became a big maintenance chore and chose stainless instead. That’s pretty much what every diver uses now. We had hopeed to find a source for the raw material and save a little money. Thanks.

SND,

Yes, that’s exactly what we are looking for. Our local dive shop carries them, but prices have kept pace with gasoline in the last few years. One grouper shaft can go for as much as forty dollars. I will do some homework on the material you mentioned. Thanks.

Regards,

Drew
 
Stick a small rare earth magnet to the original spears. If its very magnetic, nearly to the point of steel, its a 400 series, if its mildly magnetic, its likely 17-4. If its just very, very slightly magnetic its 304 or 316(most likely 304 because its cheaper)
 
SND,

Aha, you responded before I completed my research.:) This is what I wrote to respond to your first post.

You gave me some direction when you listed material types. Thus, I went at this from a different angle. www.smallparts.com usually lists the material and treatment used in making their parts. I looked up their stainless springs and found the ASTM number for 302 and 316. From this I did a search and found a .pdf at http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/properties_of_common_spring_materials.pdf, which I believe has the answer to my question. Because 316 is used extensively in the marine industry due to its better corrosion resistance, I suspect that’s what I need. What I didn’t know was that it becomes magnetic like steel when spring tempered. I went to my garage and tested one of my shafts with a rare earth magnet. It reacts just like carbon steel whereas my other 316 parts are very mildly magnetic.

Now, after your second post, considering the magnetic properties of the SS that you mentioned, the corrosion resistance and the magnetic properties of tempered 316 and the fact that it is the marine standard for hardware, would you agree that 316 is the way to go or should I keep looking? Thanks.


Regards,

Drew
 
316 is indeed used a lot in marine applications, it has better corrosion resistance than 304. But you mention that many of them get lost, which means you likely would never really get to see the difference in corrosion resistance between the 2. Although maybe 100 years from now the fishes will? haha

302/304 and 316 type stainless are work hardened into a spring temper as far as I know. That's why they become much more magnetic in a spring temper. The stresses put into the material do seem to make it a bit harder to bend (if doing sharp bends), I make some small parts in 302/304 stainless spring wire.

I'm really not sure up to what size they make it in spring tempered when it comes to 300series stainless, and if you'd gain much vs just using a very normal 304 or 316 rod. Maybe the spring tempered/harder stuff holds a slightly better/sharper edge? you could probably get that also from hammer forming the tip on plain 316. Then again if you can get the spring tempered material in the size you need for a reasonable price, might as well try it, or make one of each type and see? there's probably many things that would get the job done.
 
The chief advantage of 316 comes in resistance to pitting corrosion during prolonged (weeks & months) immersion in chloride solutions (like seawater). Unless your lungs are better than mine you'll be fine with 302 !

If you want the shafts to resist bending you'd want to use hard-drawn spring stock, rather than just forging the ends

http://www.bridonstocksbridge.com/stlesspr.htm

lists hard-drawn stainless spring wire in 302 (also 316 and two European standard materials I don't recognise), up to 16mm, which I would have though would be big enough in Florida.

I guess your grouper don't get quite as big as they do in Texas...
 
Slightly OT

SND,

I can’t quit laughing between you and Troup. You both make very good points – how long do these things really need to last!! It puts things in perspective. I like your suggestion about trying each type to see how they do. Thanks much.

Troup,

Thank you for the link and adding to SND’s perspective. Do I really need a spear that I might lose to last a life time?

Just so you know your lungs are probably better than mine, but I do try to keep up with the kids. As far as grouper in Florida go, you are probably right, but can you keep up with grouper in the Bahamas? See photos.

Regards,

Drew

ps: These fish were caught on rod and reel, not shot. We released them and confirmed that they were unharmed underwater. Also, we use Hawaiian slings as opposed to spear guns and shoot only what we can eat.
 

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SND,
ps: These fish were caught on rod and reel, not shot. We released them and confirmed that they were unharmed underwater. Also, we use Hawaiian slings as opposed to spear guns and shoot only what we can eat.

In Florida it's illegal to remove a goliath grouper of any size from the water even for a pic such as yours, because the hoisting vertical damages the internal organs of such a large fish. So don't be too sure about "released unharmed".

As for the topic, I buy various sizes of cut and straightened lengths of 302 SS spring temper wire from Laurel Wire in CT http://www.laurelwire.com/. It'll cost around $15/lb for 10lbs, with price breaks for volume. 3/16 dia is roughly 10'/lb
 
Hmm, guess it's good he said he was in the Bahamas then. The organs are that fragile that just being vertical can damage them? It's a wonder that any of those fish live.
 
Hmm, guess it's good he said he was in the Bahamas then. The organs are that fragile that just being vertical can damage them? It's a wonder that any of those fish live.

The structures that attach the organs are meant to do so in a neutral buoyancy environment, not to support them hung vertical out of the water. The larger the fish, the more pronounced this effect is, due to the inverse square law.

That Bahamas isn't as enlightened as Florida, where those fish were nearly exterminated, isn't really the point, is it? He said it was unharmed, when science strong enough to create state law says otherwise.
 
OT - Breaking the law

Gellfex:

Thank you for your comments and the links for the 302 SS spring temper wire. Moreover, I am very sorry if I offended you or anyone else by posting these pictures. It was not my intent.

Now, since you have intimated in a public forum that I have broken Florida law, I must set the record straight. I have been a conservationist since giving up my commercial fishing license in 1985. As such, I am well aware that it’s illegal to remove a Goliath grouper of any size from the water, except for scientific research - even for a picture. Please refer to the link below:

http://www.floridaconservation.org/marine/grouper/goliath_grouper/catch_release.htm

However, from your comments, it appears as though you have mistaken a Black Grouper for a Goliath Grouper. I have provided two links that may help you differentiate between the two. As you can see from the pictures, these were not Goliath Grouper. With respect, I would suggest that you do some research before telling people in a public forum that I am breaking the law.

http://www.floridaconservation.org/marine/fishid/groupbla.html
http://www.floridaconservation.org/marine/fishid/groupgoliath.html
http://www.floridaconservation.org/marine/fishid/

As for your comment about being sure that it was unharmed, we observed these fish return to the bottom and swim away unharmed. We stayed with them for about ten to fifteen minutes to make sure. If we thought that they were going to die, we would have taken them as our legal catch.

Black Grouper are legal to take in Florida in the Atlantic and Monroe County if they are twenty-four inches and over; and 22 inches and over in the Gulf of Mexico. There is no size limit in the Bahamas. We were clearly within our legal right to take these fish, but we chose to release them unharmed.

I am truly sorry that this thread has caused offense to anyone. I was only responding in kind to Troup’s light hearted comment about Texas grouper. I will do my best to stick to the machine shop in the future.

Regards

Drew Keyes
 
Pak,

You might want to give these guys a call.

Simmons Stainless
4650 NW 72nd Ave
Miami, FL 33166
(305) 592-3838

No affiliation except that I buy from them.

Cheers,
Jim
 
Props to Pak. And gellfex, I understand where you're coming from, although I sometimes wonder about how much many laws have anything to do with "proper" science, and how many have to do with "emotional issues."
 
Simmons Surplus

Jim,

Thank you. I too buy from Simmons. I called them first, but they don't carry it and were not sure about the type of SS to look for. Thus, my query here. Thanks anyway for taking the time to respond.

Regards,

Drew Keyes
 
Gellfex:

Now, since you have intimated in a public forum that I have broken Florida law, I must set the record straight.


No accusations were made! I simply stated what I knew about how and why Florida manages their grouper fishery. That it's a black grouper rather than a goliath seem irrelevant. I must assume the law regarding goliaths would simply be catch and release if no one thought the vertical photo op was harmful to the fish. I'm no biologist, but 15 minute survival is no indication of longer term survival from internal damage. People walk away from accidents with life threatening internal injuries all the time.
 








 
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