valve seat grinder

axlsavage · Jan 21, 2007

Im interested in putting large valves in chevy 350 heads. Mainly 1.94 to 2.02. The stk seats can take the enlargement. Im interested in the equipment to enlarge the seats. I want something easy to use for small volume only, couple sets of heads a month. Cheap in other words

Can anyone suggest a manufacture or part number or model number or ? Yes Im new to this thats why I want to start very small.

Thanks

Skeeter · Jan 21, 2007

Hi Axlsavage,

You could check with a few of the auto machine shops in your area, they might have older units or know who might want to sell one.

I know Snap-on has them, but they are made by another company. Mac-tools, or Cornwell dealers might know as well.

A couple thoughts.

enginebuilder · Jan 21, 2007

if you are doing low volume, and dont want a major machine investment, I would look at the Neway cutter system. they make a hand powered or a machine powered version. basically, angled cutter heads at the seat angles, with replaceable cutter blades. They can remove material a lot quicker than just grinding with a seat grinder. Start with the angle under the seat and throat it out and then bring the seat and top angle in to it. Then finish up with a regular stone grinder set up. Some people dont finish with a stone afterwards, low finish quality is the result.
Other than that you are looking at some kind of head machine with the serdi / newen style three angle seat cutter system, lots of $$$ unless you luck into something.
look here: goodson and do a search for Neway, It will show you what to look for. With some searchihg you should find a used set up fairly reasonable, as engine shops are dropping like flies these days.
Jim

Carl Darnell · Jan 21, 2007

You are going to have to enlarge the port at the valve seat area and put stellite seats in and to do that you will need a machine that is designed to do valve seat and valve guide replacements. They look like a heavy duty drill press with an adjustable rack for the head that is floated into position with air. It can be done with a Bridgeport mill but not as easily. If you use a valve seat grinder it will take for ever and you may still have to cut the heads out for larger valve seat inserts. There is no cheap way to get into the head business and the price competition is tight.

axlsavage · Jan 22, 2007

Hey Enginbuilder, thanks for the great info. I have a email in to goodson at their tech area. So hopefully they can help. If I have more questions I hope you dont mind if I PM you.

Thanks

corvette78 · Jan 22, 2007

if you are only doing two sets a month you will be loosing money. First of all you have to recondition the guide, this could be knurling or installing inserts. Then you get into cutters to open the seat, once the seat is opened you have to blend in the port. Once the seats have been opened you run the risk of dropping a seat due to removed material. It is best to use the seat required for a 2.02 valve. Unless the heads are used for all out competition the difference will not be worth the time and money. A different approach would to install a competition valve. There are plenty of companies making heads that have cnc cut runners that outperform modified heads and are usually cheaper in the end. Unless you have a flow bench you may be decreasing performance. It sounds like a great idea but you may be opening a can of w---s

bob308 · Jan 22, 2007

ihave been doing heads for a long time. i use souix seat grinder. why did i get into heads beacuse i could not get a good valve job.

you do have to make sure the guides are to size. knurling is not the way to do it. i use bronze walls.

to inlarge the seats you do not need seat inserts. but do you realy ned the larger valves? i have been using 1.94 intakes in some of my dirtrack motors. by going to 2.02 you run into valve shroding problems. now if you really want to do a big valve and gain something put in a larger exhaust valve. and leave the intake alone.

axlsavage · Jan 22, 2007

Yes, Im going to use large exhaust valves. Stk is 1.50 and Im going to use 1.56 Actually just so everyone knows....Im going to use 2.00in not 2.02 I just used that size because everyone is familiar with that size. 2.00 and 1.56 are newer sizes that are fairly new and fit the stk seats alot easier than the larger 2.02 and 1.60 valves. And still get a performance advantage. Thanks

Hammer n Chisel · Jan 22, 2007

2.02 isn't very large to a machine that can hold a tolerence. The newer DART heads come with 2.06 valves - and no more problems than the 2.02

You are just kidding yourself if you think that you can buy stones and hold a tolerence. Even the older air table models of "Head Shops" are nothing but a joke.

Pay a machine shop to do the work for you and spend your time doing other things that you can do and you will make more money than you could if you were spending that time just doing heads.

I have a Berco seat and guide machine.. I Bought it a few years ago at the PRI Show for $18,000
It will never pay for its self. By the time that you pay for all the consumables - it's hard to get a customer to pay $15 a valve to recondition a head here.

The best customers are the ones that want to rebuild Farmall and John Deere tractors for tractor pulls. Not kids that wants to drag race. They know that they need to spend the money to get the performance. Where do you buy a new head for a 46 Farmall?

Using a stone to cut a seat is a joke.

Not putting a hardened insert in the seat will only ruin the head that much quicker. Phospherous Bronze valve guides are the only way to go. Just that it is hard to remove one - without the proper cutter if one wears out.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0701gm_ls1_dyno_tech/specs.html

axlsavage · Jan 22, 2007

Thats why Im here, trying to figure this stuff out. But some of my research has shown that Neway and Serdi make carbide cutter kits. Serdi has the Micro 2000 and Neway has a kit that you just add whatever size cutters. Now I know there is still more to this and that is what Im trying to figure out. Goodson tech mentioned 60 or 75 degree throat cutters. Now that is a new aspect of all of this to me. More stuff to figure out! Thanks

bob308 · Jan 22, 2007

strange in all other manufacturing if you want it realy close you grind it. now some one is saying you can not grind seats and hold them round. i have been doing it for years i indicate mt seats to +- .0005 factory is .003. now i have seen more heads wrecked with the new cutters.

chevy43 · Jan 22, 2007

I'm really intrested in this thread. I have been contemplating a valve seat cutter as well.

Grinding VRS cutting: keep the opinoins comming.

I bought a recipricating air vavle lapper and dit the seats on my Nissan diesel with coarse then fine Clover lapping compound and got a nice seal that way. I know that is only good for a touch up and isn't going to fix bigger problems. That is why im intrested in cutting or grinding.

Hammer n Chisel · Jan 22, 2007

bob308
303 Stainless
Member # 8925

Rate Member posted 01-22-2007 02:33 PM
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strange in all other manufacturing if you want it realy close you grind it. now some one is saying you can not grind seats and hold them round. i have been doing it for years i indicate mt seats to +- .0005 factory is .003. now i have seen more heads wrecked with the new cutters.
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Posts: 316 | From: littlestown pa. | IP: Logged

BOB,
In a racing application - such as NASCAR we are talking about a tolerence of about .00005

If the closest I could get one is .003 - I would be laughed at.

The seal at the seat is what makes the valve work and work efficiently. The more rigid the tolerences the less room for error. The more seal you make - the more horsepower you are going to make.

A good valve job on a GM Performance 350 Crate Motor is worth about 10 - 15 HP!

The person to talk to would be Vic Hill Racing Engines.

VIC Hill Racing Supplies
10386 Blue Springs Pkwy
Mosheim, TN 37818View Map
4234226644

By the way, Vic Hill is the person that built all of the heads for all of the engines at Richard Childress Racing during the period that Dale Earnhardt won 6 out of his 7 Winston Cups.

The other I belive was when he drove for Bud Moore Engineering, which was in a Ford, probably Ernie Elliot Racing engines if I remember right.

bob308 · Jan 22, 2007

the .003 is what the factoery calls for. i get mine closer then that by a lot. the .0005 is the max.i will let be used. i dont see any nascar motors being built around here. but i do a few dirt car motors and drag motors.

pistonskirt · Jan 22, 2007

Axlsavage

Serdi is a single blade system where the cutter is a pre ground form tool which cuts the 3 or more angles in one operation, deflection is controlled by conventional guide pilot below the cutter head & an upper bearing support above it, they work quite well on stem diameters above 6.00mm & will accomodate some valve seat insert pocket machining, they are probably the quickest method of cutting or enlarging a multi angle seat. The downside is the cost, even entry level manual equipment is high & rarely seen on the used market. There are similar units made for use in a milling machine, which may have preceeeded the Serdi, of Swedish manufacture but the name escapes me for the moment.

Neway are multi blade cutters working on an expanding or taper mandrel, to cut 3 angles on 1.5" & 2.00" you would need 6 cutter heads, if the seats were not too shrouded you may get away with 4 cutter heads as the 60 degree & 45 degree may handle both as the blades can be adjusted in the cutter heads. Expanding mandrels are not too expensive though solid taper mandrels can be turned up very cheaply & are much more rigid.

Valve seat grinders dont work for me as all my work is done on alluminium heads with valve stem diameters below 5.00mm, however the orbital recipriocating ones should work very well on cast iron heads of larger throat & stem diameters.

For my own work I use diamond impregnated cones for re-cutting / finishing & Neways for heavier cutting & moderate throat enlargement.

regards

Brian

donie · Jan 23, 2007

I have seat cutters that work great. And diamond wheels
I also have a Sioux aircraft seat grinder set that is alot more precision than the automotive version.
I often turn my own solid pilots also, the expanding pilots are not accurate enough for performance applications.

enginebuilder · Jan 23, 2007

you dont need to or want to put seat inserts on the intake side. If you intend to run unleaded fuel, you should use hardened inserts on the exhaust. Stelite is not needed unless you're running propane or NG. Plain old high nickel seats like the Snyder 30k series is plenty good enough. BE careful oversizing exhaust seats when installing seat inserts. It is failry common to "find water" meaning the oversize often reaches the wate jacket. junk is the result.
Jim

Booger · Jan 23, 2007

It's great your machine can hold that kind of run out...I hope the guides are tight enough to take advantage of it.How tight do they run guides in NASCAR motors?

Guess I'm old school.Carbide cutter is fast.Grinding is precise.I've used alot of carbide and have yet to see it leave a finish as smooth grinding is capable of.If your going to cut it smooth,break out the diamonds.

For just a few heads,it hard to beat the neway setup for the money.It may not pass nascar standards but you will be able to do valve jobs that will be far better than factory.Find yourself a Sioux or Kwikway valve grinder.

No seat needed for intake.If the exhaust has a seat already,open it up,if not,put one in.

If your only opening the seats .060,just under cut the existing beat out seat and your there...

corvette78 · Jan 23, 2007

That is the bottom side of the head, are you going to put in screw in studs ? Do you have the capability to cut the spring pads for larger diameter springs ? Who is responsible if you hit a water jacket ? I have a friend that does performance work and he is in court at least once a year. The last time involved a "first timer" who was more concerned with running the engine 30 min to break the cam in and not watching the temperature guage.

enginebuilder · Jan 23, 2007

If your friend is in court once a year, he aint much good is he?
Jim
(15+years, never been to court)

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