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What happened to the Tracer Flame Cutters?

muleworks

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Reform Alabama
It seems like all small shops use to have the small pantograph type flame cutters that had a magnetic spindle that followed a patten above the work. Now you don't see any of them. I understand technology has left these behind a long time ago but what does small shops do that don't have cnc flame cutters? I use mine to cut circles or odd shapes that would be kinda hard to do by hand, but doesn't warrant hiring it out. It just seeems odd no one had these any more. I guess they went the same way as the shaper and horizontal mill. Here is a pic of a small one, mine is a free standing model from the 70's. I see that esab still makes them but they are way over priced http://www.lowbucktools.com/flamecut.html
Chris
 
Hey Chris,
Don't fret, I still have one of those Old flame cutters. I use it to make brackets for the race cars, all the time!` Must have bought mine back in the 80's, and never let me down yet.

Your right about them being handy. I don't think I'd like to farm out, all the one of a kinds I get to make up.

Here's a pic of mine, if this is what we're talkin about.

flamecutter.jpg


Cheers
April :D
 
Talk about handy -- the last place I worked had a pantograph that had an electric eyeball that followed a black line drawn on white paper or cardboard. No fooling around with making metal templates, just get a ruler, compass, whatever and draw what you want. I suppose something out of a printer could work too, but you might need to darken up the lines. I remember having to darken/widen some lines, but can't remember if we made them heavier on the inside or outside of what we wanted cut.
 
Today's computer operated equipment has largely displaced them in shops down here. For example, I had some parts to cut, and emailed another shop a CAD drawing I made, then had the parts UPS shipped to me. All for much less trouble and time than bothering with the pantograph I used to have, which was also a good thing, but this was better for me.

Richard
 
I bought and electric eye one at an auction for 25 bucks, no one would buy it, eventually threw it in on a wholesale deal, I thought a small shop would jump at it,
 
Here is a model that I started to manufacture but had a problem with the electrical system. The first customer would just turn the motor speed to zero and not shut off the switch. The electromagnet was still getting juice and would eventually get hot enough to melt the insulation and cook the electrical box. The guy who was doing the electrical stuff had a fire and had to move and lost his employees. It took about a year to get everything going again with a total new design on the electrical portion of the machine. In the meantime I had developed some other stuff and didn't have time to devote to the torch.

I still got about 20 of them that need to be assembled.

Torch-A-PartUnit.jpg
 
The pantograph style flamecutters are a PITA by todays standards. I have made several patterns for them from easy to complex and after compensating for the stylus diameter plus you had to make it out of steel.... well I'm so glad there is CNC. I had an optical tracer that worked great. I would print out a CAD drawing 1:1 and then trace it. Much better than the pantograph. The pantograph has gone the way of the horse and buggy.

Jim
www.pivotlok.com
 
May have gone the way of the horse and buggy but I'd still like to have one. It beats going to the yellow pages to look for a cutting shop to beg for your one small part.
 
Wow it's funny that so many of you say, the pantograph has gone the way of the horse and buggy.

When my dad first started building race cars, in the early 60's, he said, he had to go find a steel mill, buy the steel, and draw out in marker, what he wanted to cut into a bracket. He then set out with his handy dandy torch and cut them by hand. He then spent, pain stakin hours straightening out the brackets with a file, or if he was lucky someone had a power grinder!~ After hours and hours he had himself a nice set of brackets for the car.

I laughed at him, and told him he was one step forward, from a horse and buggy.

When I got my pantograph flame cutter, I told him he was doing it the hard way, and in about an hour, maybe two hours, I can usually produce the four link brackets, or any other brackets I needed, no grinding, just a light belt sander!~

Of course now a days, the young guys laugh at me, because they just draw it out on a piece of paper, and away the machine goes, plasma cut and all.

I have had mine so long, and it's never let me down. I can't see, being in the middle of a job, and havin to wait a day or two, to get them done by someone else. I really don't find it a PITA to make up the templates, that the tracer follows. I have an abundance of spare templates, usually one that can be altered a bit to suit my needs real fast.

But I am also not doing, production runs of anything, I build custom race cars, street rods and most anything else, that rolls and needs work. So in my case I geuss I'll keep that old horse, and maybe modify the buggy! I also can't see being without that old horse, because it's simplisity at it's best!~

Proof I geuss that time changes everything, or I'm just an old horse!~ :D lol

Cheers
April :D
 
While I can agree with everything that Wild West says about the pantograph machines up to a point, some of us are not so lucky as to have a CNC laser or high definition plasma unit sitting around. We probably haven’t even been so lucky as to have found an electronic eye machine at an auction for a steal. Even the units like PlasmaCAM can run on the high side of $10,000 by the time that you get it operational. Some might be fortunate enough to have a buddy who can sneak some cutting in at work, but if they are like me, they don’t want to see anybody jeopardize a job doing stuff like that.

If I need 100 pieces of a part, yes the call goes out to the laser cutter to make them. But most aren’t interested in fooling with 4 or 5 or for that matter 25 pieces. Sure they will do it, if you have been giving them orders for the 100 piece stuff, but the price still not be proportional. I’m afraid that the small manufacturer and specialty shop have fallen through the cracks in this deal. While a machine like the Torch-A-Part is certainly not the be all-end all, I think that it has some validity for the little guy.

As far as making patterns goes, I probably have a couple thousand of them. If I need to cut a 4” square out of 3/8” plate, I’ll make a pattern. I can do it faster than sawing on the bandsaw. Yes, the offset for the diameter of the tracing rotor is kind of a pain. That is the biggest problem for most guys. But in our high tech world and in the day of cheap 2D CAD programs, it has gotten much easier to do this layout. What I have been doing on some parts is drawing it full size in QuickCAD and I then use the offset command and back it up at half of the diameter of the tracing rotor. Then go back and delete the full size portion of the drawing and a little cleanup on the corners and add center marks for the holes. I print this out on card stock. I make the vast majority of my patterns out of 16 ga. steel sheet. I use rubber cement and glue the pattern to the steel. I then center punch the hole centers and then saw out the pattern on the bandsaw. A little time with the disc and belt sanders to slick up the edges and it’s ready to produce parts. There is a little bonus here also. Those hole centers that I center punch get a 1/8” hole punched with a Whitney hand punch and then become a transfer pattern for drilling holes in the cut plates.

Yes, you’re right, it is horse and buggy stuff. But that’s all the faster some of us need to go. A pantograph has played a large part in my providing a living for myself and my family for the past 30 years of self-employment.
 
I enjoyed reading all the replies about the pantograph tracer. Esab still makes a free standing setup like the ones below, but they are kinda high for what they are. Hey George, why didn't you just use a rare earth magnet instead of the electrical magnet? I think the old one I have has just a plain magnet with steel knurled dowel for the tracer. I am going to do a little playing with it and build me an entire new one. I seen one on ebay fetch 300.00 about a year ago, I thought that was pretty high. I like the way George used a standard hand torch instead of a machine torch. The hand torches are alot cheaper. Has anyone ever considered using solonoids to control the on and off of the oxygen for the actual cutting process. Thats the only complaint I have for my machine torch model. Its kinda tricky trying to cut the oxygen on, cutting the tracer motor on, and trying not to bump the stylus off of the stencil.
I guess this thread can turn into an list of ways to improve the cutter. I can cut out one or two simple brackets faster than my friend can turn on his computer on and import his cad file into his torchmate 3. But when it comes to several parts or intricate detail, it is again just an old horse and buggy compared to the corvette.
My list of improvements for my new one.
1. make it where you can cut the oxygen on and off with a solonoid.
2. I would like a foot control to cut the stylus on and off b/c I am always bumping mine off the pattern when I get ready to cut. Maybe a petal where you could control the speed so you could speed up or slow down depending on the cut you getting or when you come to a corner.
3. Use an electric striker similar to the new gas range tops so you don't have to look all over the shop for your hand striker
4. I would like to find a better magnet than what mine has, maybe like george's (electric magnet) or use a rare earth magnet. The rare earth magnets are pretty stout.
5. I would like the pantograph part be from aluminum, so it could maybe be portable or if someone wanted to produce these they would be cheaper to ship if they could be unbolted and lightweight. Mine is a big old heavy thing. And I hate painting, so aluminum would take care of both
6. A table for holding the steel that isn't made to the pantograph so it could be used for other shop chores and contain water or sand trap to catch all the falling slag so the concrete wouldn't sound like popcorn. It could also be used as a manual cutting table in the shop. I would like it to have casters on the bottom.
Well what do you fellas think. I know thats alot of stuff for an old horse but my as well build the best if you gonna do it.
Chris
 
Flame cutters are being replaced by CNC water knives. Fast, clean, and precise. No heat, no warping. They can etch or cut 4" steel. Just cut 2 plates about 14"*14"*2.5" with 8 thru holes. Took about 4 hours per plate at a cost of about $120 for materials (grit). Holes look almost as good as drilled. Edges and hoses require no additional machining.
 
1. make it where you can cut the oxygen on and off with a solonoid.
I geuss I don't have that problem, because mine has the adjuster right at the tip.

2. I would like a foot control to cut the stylus on and off b/c I am always bumping mine off the pattern when I get ready to cut. Maybe a petal where you could control the speed so you could speed up or slow down depending on the cut you getting or when you come to a corner.
Mine has an adjustable speed on the top portion of the box that sits on the arm of the pantograph.If I want to go faster or slower I simply reach over and turn the knob and it adjust to what I need.

3. Use an electric striker similar to the new gas range tops so you don't have to look all over the shop for your hand striker
Never had a problem with the striker, but I do have it attached to a chain on the machine, so it doesn't go for a walk when I need it. Although a BQ, striker works great!~

4. I would like to find a better magnet than what mine has, maybe like george's (electric magnet) or use a rare earth magnet. The rare earth magnets are pretty stout.
Like I said my machines got to be at least 24 years old now, and the magnet that I have sems to be okay, but if I ever have a problem, I might consider a earth magnet, they seem to be pretty strong. Although I have found, that if you have it sitting off center, the arm likes to walk away from the template. Or if I am makin a large template I may make it out of thicker material so the magnet bite better.

5. I would like the pantograph part be from aluminum, so it could maybe be portable or if someone wanted to produce these they would be cheaper to ship if they could be unbolted and lightweight. Mine is a big old heavy thing. And I hate painting, so aluminum would take care of both
My machine is all aluminum, and is fully adjustable by knobs, that are all over the arms. It's light enough to pick up and carry anywhere, but I have yet to move it off the table it sits on, because it took a bit to get it perfect and level the first time!~

6.A table for holding the steel that isn't made to the pantograph so it could be used for other shop chores and contain water or sand trap to catch all the falling slag so the concrete wouldn't sound like popcorn. It could also be used as a manual cutting table in the shop. I would like it to have casters on the bottom.
Well the table mine sits on is about 2' x 4' and is usable for other options as well. Darn near everything in our shop has casters on it, I hate lifting heavy things!~ Cause this old horse aint gettin any younger!~ lol :D

Either way Chris, all of the things you mentioned may need to be done to your older machine, but they seem to have been addressed on mine.

BTW, I bought mine form the Wleders Supply, which is now owned by Praxair. I don't know if they still carry the line or not, I do hope they still carry some parts for it, because sooner or later.......it's going to need a rebuild!~

I realize that most people think of them, as pretty primitive, but hey, what's one mans junk....is another mans treasure.
I'm sure if some home hobbiest seen one in a dumpster.....he'd be driving!~

Cheers
April :D
 
April,
Thanks for the input. My machine has the on and off switch and variable speed control; but its on the pantograph arm and its easy to bump it off of the pattern. I would like the variable speed foot control b/c when you come to a sharp corner sometimes the stylus just jumps off the pattern unless you go real slow and on thin material you loose the cut.
I could get by with my old one, but I am out to make the new one alot more user friendly.
Chris
 
I work at a antenna manufacturing shop, we use a flame cutting tracer daily for production. Its perfect for gussets and brackets, and alot cheaper than our new mitsubishi laser.
 
Here is a model that I started to manufacture but had a problem with the electrical system. The first customer would just turn the motor speed to zero and not shut off the switch. The electromagnet was still getting juice and would eventually get hot enough to melt the insulation and cook the electrical box. The guy who was doing the electrical stuff had a fire and had to move and lost his employees. It took about a year to get everything going again with a total new design on the electrical portion of the machine. In the meantime I had developed some other stuff and didn't have time to devote to the torch.

I still got about 20 of them that need to be assembled.

Torch-A-PartUnit.jpg

Do you have any left?
 
If you guys get a chance google plasma glide. there is some video of it in action. A shop up the street from me made a couple of them. He may put them in production they are great machines.
 
I collected parts to build a tracer much like the one pictured, 30 years ago, then I picked up an electric eye machine instead.

The reason the electric eye machines are not selling, is no-one supports them with parts. It was cantankerous, and ran off every so often, and when doing 1" plate, that get's expensive, plus I drew my templates on CAD anyways.
I sold it (at a profit) to a weld shop that just couldn't commit to drawing in CAD....:crazy:

I then bought a spindle tracer, and made some templates for it, but never
seemed to ever need the same part over again, after spending time making
the templates.
I sold this to someone in New York City, and he is happy with it.

I now have a homebuilt CNC oxy torch, I needed some circles cut out
the other day to adapt my tire machine to handle larger center holes rims (skid loader wheels)

I walked up to the machine, drew what I wanted in CAD, transferred the files to sheetcam to add the tool path, then onto Mach3.
In 15 minutes total time I had my (2) rings burned out.

With the spindle tracer, I had oodles of rings under the table
to be used a templates, yet none were the correct size for this job.

I have a free program called "sprocketeer" which I have used to burn out chain sprockets for the neighbors potato digger.
I simply key in the required parameters
into a menu, and it generates the profile.

If I still was using the template burner,
I would still be making that hand template.
 

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