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What's it like when Reliable Tool shows up at an auction?
- Thread starter MEF
- Start date
- Replies 36
- Views 9,681
Some of the West Coasters can tell you more what it's like to be at an auction with Jabba the Hutt, but judging from the more commercial type machines they have lost money on I suspect they only have a vague idea of "what something is worth" and probably just assume that most items at a live auction attended by perhaps 50 people, are going to bring more when exposed to a world wide audience via eBay, so they just bid till they win and hope for the best.
Unfortunately it doesn't always work out that way, but it does often enough for them, such that their sheer volume of small profits, more than makes up for the inevitable losses.
Unfortunately it doesn't always work out that way, but it does often enough for them, such that their sheer volume of small profits, more than makes up for the inevitable losses.
Dave A
Titanium
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2005
- Location
- Roseville, CA
They will try to buy anything they feel they can sell at a profit. They work from a copy of the auction list and have a pre-determined value, (as anyone should) on what they will bid. I have seen an employee do most of the bidding, but the final say comes from the owner, who is sitting in a chair nearby.
Can you get any bargains? Depends on what you are looking for and what you consider a bargain. Yes, it's possible, but a lot depends on what other attendee's are wanting/bidding. Reliable is not going to bid an outrageous amount, because they want to resell it. However, since they are going to pay a rigger to haul it, they might as well have more on the truck. One machine is not economical for them, unless they are very close to home base.
I think you should always take a catalog, like Enco, or MSC to an auction so you can comparative price and not overestimate new value.
Can you get any bargains? Depends on what you are looking for and what you consider a bargain. Yes, it's possible, but a lot depends on what other attendee's are wanting/bidding. Reliable is not going to bid an outrageous amount, because they want to resell it. However, since they are going to pay a rigger to haul it, they might as well have more on the truck. One machine is not economical for them, unless they are very close to home base.
I think you should always take a catalog, like Enco, or MSC to an auction so you can comparative price and not overestimate new value.
I doubt even for Reliable, by the time they figured truck operation costs, insurance, regulatory costs, more hired help, forklifts, etc, etc, that it would work out financally in the end. I've known alot of dealers in my day, and only one of them had a proper dual axle rollback type truck for handling more than 10,000 lb loads. But even he sold it when he eventually realized it was a loosing proposition.
The only "sort of" economical DIY hauling is via under 26,000 GVW vehicles and/or pickup truck and trailer.
Metal Slave
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2005
- Location
- California
I work about 20 minutes from Reliable Tools so I have the priviledge to go check their machinery.I found interest in a few of their Bridgeport mills that they had on EBay.All 3 times I went to check out the machine they have turned out to be pretty worn out.They have that blue screen that they photograph everything in front of.For some reason,this makes the machine look better than it really is.They rescrape the ways on all of the mills to give it that well taken care of or newer look.No offense to anyone that may have bought machinery from there,I'm sure they have some ok stuff,,just nothing I was interested in.
They have a nice tool store where you can buy holders & face mills or things like that.At really good prices too.
There's another local machinery company in Santa Ana,CA called PM machine.They also sell on Ebay.The last time I was there I was talking to the owner of the place about Reliable.He told me that Reliable pretty much goes to auctions and buys everything they can,kinda monopolizing the used machinery business.He told me it used to be that all these used dealers were at an auction & it was a "you buy this & I'll buy that" kind of affair.So they all shared the same principals.Not anymore,,because Reliable Tools is buying everything.These other dealers don't think too highly of Reliable Tools.
They have a nice tool store where you can buy holders & face mills or things like that.At really good prices too.
There's another local machinery company in Santa Ana,CA called PM machine.They also sell on Ebay.The last time I was there I was talking to the owner of the place about Reliable.He told me that Reliable pretty much goes to auctions and buys everything they can,kinda monopolizing the used machinery business.He told me it used to be that all these used dealers were at an auction & it was a "you buy this & I'll buy that" kind of affair.So they all shared the same principals.Not anymore,,because Reliable Tools is buying everything.These other dealers don't think too highly of Reliable Tools.
Well, I sort of do the same thing...not so much talking about it and/or planning out bidding beforehand, just a situation where if one dealer is bidding on a piece that I'm ambivalent about owning, I'll not jump in when I might have otherwise, and they do the same for me.
Having said that, using the word "principals" for that sort of practice is a bit ironic, as from a legal standpoint it might be construed as the opposite of "principled"...bid rigging !
Dave A
Titanium
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2005
- Location
- Roseville, CA
In reply to MEF - It is just as Don stated. I talked to the owner of Reliable at one auction and asked him about riggers and transportation. He just uses one of the riggers that show up and park outside the auction site. I am sure they know him well and he may have negotiated a good deal, because of repeat business.
I also asked him if he went back east to buy and he said the cost of transport was so high, that he would have to buy about three trailer loads to make it work out. However given the differential price of machines from Calif to say Michigan, we may see Reliable doing that in the future.
I also asked him if he went back east to buy and he said the cost of transport was so high, that he would have to buy about three trailer loads to make it work out. However given the differential price of machines from Calif to say Michigan, we may see Reliable doing that in the future.
ZMAN92020
Aluminum
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2002
- Location
- El Cajon, Calif
Back to the original question, everytime I have been at auction they attend, they somehow manage to outbid everyone else . often paying more than what is even reasonable . . and later I have found their items selling on ebay for less than what they paid . . I wonder how they keep a profit margin . . It has been speculated that they get some kind of kickback from the auctions for a 'volumne buyer' . . . Overall, they seem to have an 'arrogant' attitude at auctions IMHO..generally there are 2 of them attending auctions: and they act like a 'tag team' . . the big [and I mean really big] guy sits in a chair usually in the background with their paperwork, while another guy does the bidding but constantly get's the OK from the guy in the chair . . ...I once purchased the contents of a machine shop's "storeroom", which ended up having all the tooling for a lathe Reliable had purchased earlier . . .I offered all the tooling, chucks, 5c collet closer, toolposts, steady rest etc. to them after the auction . .they weren't interested and ended up with a stripped lathe . . They had a crew arrive the next day with a simi trailer and forklift . .
Dave Burnett
Aluminum
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2001
- Location
- Rockford, MI. U.S.A.
I have seen a few items of intrest to but I live in Michigan and on some items, shipping cost more than the item. I go to the auctions no more than a 150 mile radius and do real good at them. Just bought a Jet VBS 350 14" band saw just like new for $200.00. The total ended up at $230.00, 10% buyers premium and $10.00 trailer rental to haul it home.Bought a Burr King 760 on a pedistal like new for $80.00.
Hanz
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2003
- Location
- Casselberry, FL
Are you serious? I always wondered where they got all these mills with good ways, and which they of course always include a closeup photo of.
So are you saying that they completely dissassemble all these machines, clean them up and rescrape them, and then sell them at a possible loss?
(or do they just move the table to the far end of each travel and do a 'purely cosmetic scrape,' lol?)
Hanz
If they are doing any scraping, 99 percent chance that is exactly what they are doing. No way on earth are they rescraping for accuracy (well, ok, one percent "way"
)Having said that, this is the first talk of Reliable doing cosmetic "flaking" I've heard, and without further evidence I seriously doubt it's true. I know for sure they didn't do such 4 years ago, but now ? Could be, but I doubt it as that kind of shenanagans is a major "no no"
Dave A
Titanium
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2005
- Location
- Roseville, CA
Can't comment on the scraping issue, but the owner did tell me they had a retired machinist, who does all of their machine repairs. Another member once commented that he saw the prep area and they had several people working there. I really doubt they would have time to scrape, but I guess with a Biax, it would be possible to do a cosmetic only job?? Certainly not my area of expertise.
I walk through Reliable's warehouse/shop every time I'm out there and I have never seen anybody scraping - I suppose it's possible but it's allways just a few guys scrubbing machines with simple green and another guy shooting pictures as fast as they can move em through.
Metal Slave
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2005
- Location
- California
My bad,My bad,My bad.It's obvious they don't scrape all of the mills & I odn't have proof that they have scraped even one of the mills.Maybe I should not have been so blatent in my wording.But I still wonder.
L Webb
Titanium
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2001
- Location
- Fullerton, CA USA
I've bid against them at many auctions. I have yet to witness them buying everything in sight. In fact I have done well at auctions where the owner isn't there but another buyer is.
The owner does sit out of the way and give nods or shakes to his guy doing the bidding. At one auction in the bay area they bought some magnetic chucks. One was weak as anything and the other was a European angle job which was missing a knob and someone had really buggered the shaft using pliers or something.
I followed them both on ebay. Both were described as in great condition. The weak one sold and was re-listed a few days later. The photos of the angle chuck showed every part but the buggered part. It ended up selling for some serious dollars.
As far as them getting a kickback for some kind of volume deal, I doubt it. Just who is going to pay the kickback? The auctioneers probably like to see Reliable there as they know stuff will sell. Actually, the stuff is going to sell regardless here in CA as there are just a lot of people going to the auctions.
Les
The owner does sit out of the way and give nods or shakes to his guy doing the bidding. At one auction in the bay area they bought some magnetic chucks. One was weak as anything and the other was a European angle job which was missing a knob and someone had really buggered the shaft using pliers or something.
I followed them both on ebay. Both were described as in great condition. The weak one sold and was re-listed a few days later. The photos of the angle chuck showed every part but the buggered part. It ended up selling for some serious dollars.
As far as them getting a kickback for some kind of volume deal, I doubt it. Just who is going to pay the kickback? The auctioneers probably like to see Reliable there as they know stuff will sell. Actually, the stuff is going to sell regardless here in CA as there are just a lot of people going to the auctions.
Les
Meridian
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2003
- Location
- Mohnton, PA 19540
If anyone is ever out my way and wants to see a guy who is a cross between Hydrogen-Guy and Reliable, let me know, I'll take you on a tour of the "grounds" at LB Metals.
I watch this guy (LB) at auction and conclude that he is making enough money on his home runs that the mistakes don't matter to him. I can't help but wonder how much more money he'd make if he had an advisor who helped him avoid mistakes and focus on the home runs. I've purchased items from him at one price, then watched as he paid more than that price at another auction for the same item.
I suspect Reliable is the same way. As long as they have a decent batting average, they don't sweat the mistakes. Somehow, they need to see that if they just didn't swing at some of the garbage pitches, they'd make more money doing less work.
In the meantime, they're making decent money on average.
As to the flaking issue, I have never seen a machine offered by Reliable that shows signs of a "snow job." A snow job is generally so obvious to anyone that has even a little experience with evaluating machinery, that it certainly would have been brought to light earlier if there were any truth to it. Now, buffing wheels, wire wheels, scotch-brite, steam cleaners, pressure washers, elbow grease.....that's another story.
Dave
I watch this guy (LB) at auction and conclude that he is making enough money on his home runs that the mistakes don't matter to him. I can't help but wonder how much more money he'd make if he had an advisor who helped him avoid mistakes and focus on the home runs. I've purchased items from him at one price, then watched as he paid more than that price at another auction for the same item.
I suspect Reliable is the same way. As long as they have a decent batting average, they don't sweat the mistakes. Somehow, they need to see that if they just didn't swing at some of the garbage pitches, they'd make more money doing less work.
In the meantime, they're making decent money on average.
As to the flaking issue, I have never seen a machine offered by Reliable that shows signs of a "snow job." A snow job is generally so obvious to anyone that has even a little experience with evaluating machinery, that it certainly would have been brought to light earlier if there were any truth to it. Now, buffing wheels, wire wheels, scotch-brite, steam cleaners, pressure washers, elbow grease.....that's another story.
Dave
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