160 tonnes of force and the shaft wonít come out!? Ideas? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Turn the fit and install a custom adapter sleeve for the bearings.

    And make sure the adapter sleeve has hydraulic assist for install and removal.

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    I've never worked on anything that big but what about some sort of induction heating to expand the sleeve while pushing the shaft out? Induction might just transfer to the steel and not go into the stainless cause of different heating frequencies. All I know about induction is from working on machines that make gears and axle shafts so nothing about field repairs. I think miller electric has some sort of blanket for heating too. Maybe someone else will know about induction heating?

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    To get a induction unit and coil big enough to heat that up, it would take a direct tap from a 480V line pulling over 1000 amps if not more. Pretty much be a direct tap from a 27Kva line to power the induction unit. I'm glad I don't have to pay that light bill!
    There is a company out there that can provide on site heating equipment, and at the moment I can't remember their name. I used to call them in to stress relieve piping the welders did for some of the compressor units we used to build for gas transmission use.

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    All the clever realistic posts recommending repair as-is are right.

    Likewise, all the clever experienced posts saying part a will come out from part b fairly easily are right.
    It is quite easy, and in context, to put in any bracing or piping and to plumb for oil passages wherever necessary.
    Where extreme contamination and toxicity is not an issues.

    With relatively low power / pressure the sizes of such tubes will change by many millimetres, and they can be freely moved anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4GSR View Post
    To get a induction unit and coil big enough to heat that up, it would take a direct tap from a 480V line pulling over 1000 amps if not more. Pretty much be a direct tap from a 27Kva line to power the induction unit. I'm glad I don't have to pay that light bill!
    There is a company out there that can provide on site heating equipment, and at the moment I can't remember their name. I used to call them in to stress relieve piping the welders did for some of the compressor units we used to build for gas transmission use.
    Sleeve like that is about 200kg. With specific heat of 0.5kJ/kg*K that would need for 200c temperature rise 200kJ.
    200kW output induction heater would heat it in one second. About 0.02kWh and zero cents in electricity but finding a large mobile induction heater like that is another matter.

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  7. #26
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    I used a miller proheat 35 on a >)1000lb part today. 76 to 400F in less than half an hour. 60a 480v. Way to easy to set up. From my new prospective rosebuds suck. I'd bet you have to cut it out, or do more damage and cut alot more out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiJ View Post
    Sleeve like that is about 200kg. With specific heat of 0.5kJ/kg*K that would need for 200c temperature rise 200kJ.
    200kW output induction heater would heat it in one second. About 0.02kWh and zero cents in electricity but finding a large mobile induction heater like that is another matter.
    Your math is funny here. 200kg*0.5kJ*(kg*K)^-1*200K comes out to 20,000 kJ rather than 200. You could get 2įC rise out of that mass in one second with your induction heater, but you left behind a 100 somewhere when you did your calculation. Also 0.02kWh appears incorrect, I got 5.56 from the higher 20MJ number.

    But yeah if you had something with the guts to handle that kind of amperage, it's still less than a dollar of electricity per shot. I'd pay that bill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    Your math is funny here. 200kg*0.5kJ*(kg*K)^-1*200K comes out to 20,000 kJ rather than 200. You could get 2įC rise out of that mass in one second with your induction heater, but you left behind a 100 somewhere when you did your calculation. Also 0.02kWh appears incorrect, I got 5.56 from the higher 20MJ number.

    But yeah if you had something with the guts to handle that kind of amperage, it's still less than a dollar of electricity per shot. I'd pay that bill.
    oops.
    It sure felt like too little as I have been playing with pipe bending machines that were ~1000kW power range for that size of pipe...
    But having a flu and bit of fewer & dizzy head is obviously no good. At least that's my excuse. 200*200=400, obviously

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    Appreciate all the replies and points of view here. Some good ideas.
    This isnít really a field repair. Itís at our shop and access to any equipment needed to complete the job. This is waaay above my pay grade and merely trying to offer up any suggestions that may help in plan A which is shaft removal. The outer sleeve has several holes which I didnít look too closely but were likely threaded and went all the way to the shaft. So the SKF oil injection method looked promising. Saw a YouTube video where they use it to remove train wheels. What used to take 200 tonnes of force can be done with 25 tonnes. Only reason this may not work is the gussets are putting too much inward force on the sleeve and the location of these drilled holes is near one end of the sleeve and not in the middle. Heating in general is tough because the outer portion of shaft and sleeve is easily accessible but the inside isnít.

    Will pop by there today and check on progress. If it hasnít been removed surely thereís a rebuild in place procedure in the works

    Found a picture of the drum


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    So what is specifically wrong, and what has to be done to fix it? I guess I'm still not clear on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoFish View Post
    Appreciate all the replies and points of view here. Some good ideas.
    This isn’t really a field repair. It’s at our shop and access to any equipment needed to complete the job.
    Set it out into a corn field and then it will be "field work".....

    Either way, you shop can turn this ?

    You still have ducked the main question asked by a couple of people.
    WHY DOO YOU NEED TO REMOVE THE SHAFT ?

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    Don't think you specified what material the shaft is (or I missed it)- usually they are pretty exotic materials. Even run of the mill stainless steels normally don't hold up in a drum bleaching operation. We have metallurgists that have developed proprietary best practices for all corrosive applications in a paper mill including washer drums.

    No suggestions on how to get it out other than cut it out, but some years ago we broke the non-drive end shaft on a similar washer drum. It had been in service 7 - 8 years to the best of my recollection. The real interesting part was that within a month a sister drum broke the same shaft and was put in service at the same time.

    I don't recall the base material, but when bought new we demanded an exotic material and the vendor welded the exotic material over the base shaft (I used to remember the exact materials). The stress fractures caused by the welding process caused the shafts to break and it took 7 - 8 years to happen and to both shafts. I found it very interesting.

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    Does it “need” to come out? I don’t think it actually does, however they have spent a decent amount of time and effort “trying”. I think it’s just a preference is all. The drum when in operation does not need the shaft to spin inside the bore. It was built to be permanent and why they’re even trying, again, above my pay grade. And what’s wrong with it I assume its needing to be built up/machined? Upon close inspection it’s probably beyond ideal in tolerances. Assuming the customer is getting a drum rebuilt to new specs
    Material of shaft I can’t answer that sorry. Due the imennse size and forces involved it’s likely exotic

  19. #34
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    Gosh, at this point all I can do is wish you the best. With indeterminate problems and materials, and a management that wants/needs something but doesn't seem to understand the issues it's an awkward position to be in.

    Good luck. For real.

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    It sounds like an interesting problem. Please keep us updated.

    160 tons sounds like a lot, but that's only 16 tons per inch of diameter. That's a tough fit, but not out of the ordinary.

    Your idea of a demolition Hammer may work very well. But you're trying to go the wrong way with the shaft. Grind the shaft undersize on the outside. Then the hammer you need will be mounted on a 20-ton trackhoe and drive the shaft inside.

    I would be very tempted to cut the shaft off flush on the outside, then burn a hole
    through the remaining shaft with a burning bar. If the material doesn't succumb to a burning bar, that may be the time for the demolition hammer on a track hoe.

    As for the value of your 16 lb Sledge? If that shaft was laying bare on a concrete floor you could hardly move the shaft alone pounding on it with a 16 pound Sledge.

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    This has worked for me on smaller shafts. Get a few aerosol cans of freeze spray. Put the assembly in the press and heat it as much as you dare. Start to apply pressure and hit the shaft above and below the holes with the freeze spray. One can at each point. Use some cardboard shields to keep the freeze spray off of the rotor. It will take a bit of time for the temperature to equalize at the joints so the shaft may be a bit smaller than the holes for a few seconds. Increase the pressure as quickly as you can and as much as you dare. It may come loose. I would recommend having some assistants so that all the spots on the shaft can be sprayed as simultaneously as possible. Timing is of the essence here.

    If you can't find freeze spray, the dusting spray cans will also work if you just turn them upside down so that the liquid comes out. The only difference between dusting spray and freeze spray is the absence of presence of a tube from the nozzle to the bottom of the can. When they are inverted, each becomes the other.

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    The shaft appears to be well rusty in the picture. Definitely not exotic material. 4340HT at the worse, I doubt it. Also, you got two different materials touching each other, stainless against steel. There's a 100% chance they are welded together from galvanic corrosion.

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    Guys, lets just hold hard and maybe back up a bit here.

    Taken from the OP ''Sleeve is approx 5 feet long with a 10” ID and 13” OD. Which makes the sleeve approx 1.5” wall thickness. ''

    According to my maths (which is far from good - so check if you like ) That shaft to sleeve fit amounts to an area 13.09 sq feet - yes square feet …..which equals one hell of a lot of friction.

    On edit - some more figures to consider.

    That 10" dia x 5ft long piece of bar in the sleeve alone weighs <> 1336 lbs (606 kg)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    It sounds like an interesting problem. Please keep us updated.

    160 tons sounds like a lot, but that's only 16 tons per inch of diameter. That's a tough fit, but not out of the ordinary.

    Your idea of a demolition Hammer may work very well. But you're trying to go the wrong way with the shaft. Grind the shaft undersize on the outside. Then the hammer you need will be mounted on a 20-ton trackhoe and drive the shaft inside.

    I would be very tempted to cut the shaft off flush on the outside, then burn a hole
    through the remaining shaft with a burning bar. If the material doesn't succumb to a burning bar, that may be the time for the demolition hammer on a track hoe.

    As for the value of your 16 lb Sledge? If that shaft was laying bare on a concrete floor you could hardly move the shaft alone pounding on it with a 16 pound Sledge.
    The jack hammer thought may have been poorly worded. I was thinking of tackling it from the outside of the drum, and from the side of the shaft. Itís definitely a big chunk of steel shaft and the idea was to create vibration basically. Along the lines of how a vibrating pile driver works. The weight itself of the vibrating action with said pile driver is peanuts in comparison to the weight of a piling. But throw in the force of 160 tonnes plus a side vibration emitting a frequency within the shaft I figure could cause enough separation and spit enough junk out of the sleeve while the force of the hydraulics push...

    If this had to come out then burning a hole through may suffice. What would probably happen is the shaft and sleeve would both be replaced before that would be attempted. It may look to be rusty in the photo but donít think this is the case seeing it in person

    Liquid nitrogen and other forms of cooling were apparently out of the question.

    I should have also said looking for non-destructive ideas

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    if there's threads or someway to get a stop at the end of the shaft and use a hollow jack to pull it out.


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