6.0L powerstroke possible replacement
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    Default 6.0L powerstroke possible replacement

    All - so we were happily on our way down to "The Gathering" at the Sawmill Training facility in Laurens S.C., to show our new weapons mounting system and my truck made a couple of loud "pops" and then it started running rough so I pulled in to a local Ford dealer and got the bad news that among other things, I have a blown head gasket. So, knowing that these 6.0s are notorious for that, I have been expecting it but just hoped to keep kicking that can down the road a while.

    The dealer tech hooked up his diagnostics and found a couple of injectors were not working correctly (and I had just had them replaced). He re-sealed them and hoped that would get us back on the road but no dice. It is still missing like the injector(s) is/are failing.

    So we rented a u-haul and transferred our display and inventory and continued down to SC and then back to Ohio. The truck is still in WV. I am waiting to hear what they find. They said it would probably be Tuesday (tomorrow).

    I don't want to jump too far ahead but just wondering if anybody here has found a good re-builder for these 6.0s if it comes to that. If the dealer tech thinks I can get away with just doing the top end for now I will probabaly go that route and then look for a re-built and have it on hand. Just want to try to get feedback if anybody has been down that road. The truck is still solid so it is worth putting the money in. I plan on keeping it for ten more years.

    Thanks - Joe

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    No specific recommendation on a shop, but I would think you should be able to find one in Ohio.

    If you can get the dealer to put in a set of ARP studs in the block while he's got the heads off, you'll be time & money ahead. Those head bolts have to be TIGHT. Tighter than the factory studs will allow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CatMan View Post
    No specific recommendation on a shop, but I would think you should be able to find one in Ohio.

    If you can get the dealer to put in a set of ARP studs in the block while he's got the heads off, you'll be time & money ahead. Those head bolts have to be TIGHT. Tighter than the factory studs will allow.
    CatMan - yes, ARP studs are a must. I had a diesel shop that I really liked but the owner (who was the main tech for years) decided he would do the service manager work and hire techs to do the mechanical. It has taken a very bad turn. My satisfaction rating of the place has gone from 10 to near zero. So far this year he had my truck more than I did. I told him I was going down to SC in March and needed the truck to be 100% - whatever it took. Needless to say I am not happy with him.

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    Get in contact powerstroke specialties in Georgia powerstrokehelp.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Get in contact powerstroke specialties in Georgia powerstrokehelp.com
    Do you have personal experience with them. Lots of places swearing they are the best. The one that I have been dealing with for the past three years is one of them.

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    No personal but he has quite a YouTube following and shows a ton of his work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CatMan View Post
    No specific recommendation on a shop, but I would think you should be able to find one in Ohio.

    If you can get the dealer to put in a set of ARP studs in the block while he's got the heads off, you'll be time & money ahead. Those head bolts have to be TIGHT. Tighter than the factory studs will allow.

    How will over torquing help? They are still screwed into cast iron y'know.

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    If you want to keep it have them do the Bulletproofing kit.
    EGR cooler, head bolts and gasket, oil cooler, hpop.etc. ITs all the same area labor so get it all done while they are in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    How will over torquing help? They are still screwed into cast iron y'know.
    1.5 X diameter into the block will break a 200Kpsi stud before the threads strip. I make custom studs for tractor pullers and have tested them to breaking when screwed into an engine block. A 9/16 stud will clamp almost 24,000 Lbs at 180Ft/Lbs of torque and will break at almost 30,000. The studs were tested at 5/8, 3/4, and 1" of thread engagement and only the 5/8 stripped the block. I would not have believed if not seen it myself. Videos are being edited to put up on Youtube.

    Ed.

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    Long ways from home but Central Iowa Diesel Performance in Ames, IA has made a good reputation for themselves. They've never worked on one my personal vehicles but they've tuned up several of a past-employer's personal 6.7's (Powerstroke and Cummins) and some of his fleet trucks (he owns a large towing company). At the time there was only one 6.0 in the fleet and, due to it having a new engine under warranty, all of its work was done at the Ford dealership and it was sold off shortly after.
    While working for said past employer, I recommended their shop to several customers and heard nothing but praise.

    Auto Repair, Ames IA | Central Iowa Diesel Performance

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Get in contact powerstroke specialties in Georgia powerstrokehelp.com
    Id second this guy, he knows what he is talking about there, also had something on his website showing where his repair network was. he even will pick it up and haul it to his shop.

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    A dodge 6.4l hemi ?

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    Bulletproofing means different things to different folks. The 6.0 problems are not as simple as lots of shops make it seem. I know a bit about them.

    The headgasket deal isn't singularly about clamping force.

    Navistar went to MLS headgaskets with the 6.0 and followed GM's lead copying the same method GM uses to make MLS headgaskets work well in the GM LS engine. GM used a bit light on the clamping force and a very rough finish on the block and head deck surfaces. It's a very unique looking surface finish. If you see it you will immediately realize it's quite different from anything else.

    Problem is the 6.0 puts a different kind of strain on the headgasket and GM's solution for the LS doesn't work long term for a diesel.

    The Duramax and Cummins engines also use MLS gaskets and stuck with a conventional style deck surface finish (not milled with a chainsaw) and a shitload of clamping force (more bolts). These engines don't have the problems the 6.0 and 6.4 Powerstrokes do with headgaskets.

    To solve any 6.0/6.4 headgasket shortcomings you need to have both the heads and deck surfaced to normal standards (match Cummins or Duramax finish callouts) and use ARP head studs.

    EGR is the root of most 6.0/6.4 problems/failures. Deleting EGR solves part of the problem. Using the updated cooler is a compromise if you are emissions tested. The stock camshaft profile is the other 50% of the problem. An aftermarket camshaft profile makes a world of difference for the 6.0 and 6.4.

    The high pressure oil branch tube is a big source of issues. Go with the latest greatest because you cannot change this when the engine is in the vehicle.

    An interesting feature of the 6.0 and 6.4 Powerstroke is that they have a camshaft, lifters and pushrods. You see, in the 1990's the 6.0 Powerstroke was designed from the ground up to be a camless engine. It was supposed to go into production with electronic valve actuation.

    That technology never did work so Navistar abandoned it late in development, but still had to meet the same price point to sell it to Ford. The primary purpose of electronic valve actuation was to speed up/lower cost of assembly. When Navistar had to add a camshaft they licensed GM's plastic lifter tray technology. This was cool because it allowed all 16 roller lifters and pushrods to be installed in just a second or two of line time. Saved them a ton of money. The lifter manufacturers would package lifters into a tray that served as the shipping package, the installation tool and a pushrod guide.

    The problem they didn't foresee was that the lifters they chose for the 6.0 were a carryover from the 7.3, Even the old IDI 6.9 and 7.3 used the same ones and even the GM 6.2 and 6.5 diesels used the same lifters. Those should be pretty reliable right?

    Turned out The plastic lifter trays (also function as the guides) do not like to play well with the added mass of the much larger roller lifters used in these engines. The plastic lifter trays often fail. The failure mode is most commonly a lifter wearing away the plastic until it sticks in a position 45-90 degrees rotated from aligned. When this happens the camshaft lobe chews off the roller. Then all the needles inside the roller spill out. Those needles are the perfect size to pass through the oil pump suction screen. The needles go through the low pressure oil pump and get caught in the oil filter.

    Usually sounds like a slight tap. Not loud. Might miss a little bit. Engine will continue running until it's turned off, but once it is the oil pump won't build pressure anymore so it won't start. At this point it gets towed to a shop. Diagnosed as problem with HP oil system and expensive parts replaced. Of coarse it still doesn't start. Further troubleshooting figures out the problem. Engine has to be pulled, crankshaft has to be pulled to replace camshaft, lifters and the plastic lifter trays that caused the problem.

    The even better part is when Navistar developed the 6.4 they dealt with the increased friction and parasitic loss of the plastic guides by decreasing the contact area to three narrow points where the guides grip the lifters. They obsoleted the 6.0 style guides and the new style fail faster and more frequently than the original 6.0 style.

    Cliffnotes version:

    -Install steel lifter guides when you have the heads off your 6.0 or 6.4.
    -Deck and head surface finish is imperative.
    -ARP studs imperative.
    -EGR cooler and camshaft share responsibility for issues

    Don't buy into hyped up bullshit. Do your research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Bulletproofing means different things to different folks. The 6.0 problems are not as simple as lots of shops make it seem. I know a bit about them.

    The headgasket deal isn't singularly about clamping force.

    Navistar went to MLS headgaskets with the 6.0 and followed GM's lead copying the same method GM uses to make MLS headgaskets work well in the GM LS engine. GM used a bit light on the clamping force and a very rough finish on the block and head deck surfaces. It's a very unique looking surface finish. If you see it you will immediately realize it's quite different from anything else.

    Problem is the 6.0 puts a different kind of strain on the headgasket and GM's solution for the LS doesn't work long term for a diesel.

    The Duramax and Cummins engines also use MLS gaskets and stuck with a conventional style deck surface finish (not milled with a chainsaw) and a shitload of clamping force (more bolts). These engines don't have the problems the 6.0 and 6.4 Powerstrokes do with headgaskets.

    To solve any 6.0/6.4 headgasket shortcomings you need to have both the heads and deck surfaced to normal standards (match Cummins or Duramax finish callouts) and use ARP head studs.

    EGR is the root of most 6.0/6.4 problems/failures. Deleting EGR solves part of the problem. Using the updated cooler is a compromise if you are emissions tested. The stock camshaft profile is the other 50% of the problem. An aftermarket camshaft profile makes a world of difference for the 6.0 and 6.4.

    The high pressure oil branch tube is a big source of issues. Go with the latest greatest because you cannot change this when the engine is in the vehicle.

    An interesting feature of the 6.0 and 6.4 Powerstroke is that they have a camshaft, lifters and pushrods. You see, in the 1990's the 6.0 Powerstroke was designed from the ground up to be a camless engine. It was supposed to go into production with electronic valve actuation.

    That technology never did work so Navistar abandoned it late in development, but still had to meet the same price point to sell it to Ford. The primary purpose of electronic valve actuation was to speed up/lower cost of assembly. When Navistar had to add a camshaft they licensed GM's plastic lifter tray technology. This was cool because it allowed all 16 roller lifters and pushrods to be installed in just a second or two of line time. Saved them a ton of money. The lifter manufacturers would package lifters into a tray that served as the shipping package, the installation tool and a pushrod guide.

    The problem they didn't foresee was that the lifters they chose for the 6.0 were a carryover from the 7.3, Even the old IDI 6.9 and 7.3 used the same ones and even the GM 6.2 and 6.5 diesels used the same lifters. Those should be pretty reliable right?

    Turned out The plastic lifter trays (also function as the guides) do not like to play well with the added mass of the much larger roller lifters used in these engines. The plastic lifter trays often fail. The failure mode is most commonly a lifter wearing away the plastic until it sticks in a position 45-90 degrees rotated from aligned. When this happens the camshaft lobe chews off the roller. Then all the needles inside the roller spill out. Those needles are the perfect size to pass through the oil pump suction screen. The needles go through the low pressure oil pump and get caught in the oil filter.

    Usually sounds like a slight tap. Not loud. Might miss a little bit. Engine will continue running until it's turned off, but once it is the oil pump won't build pressure anymore so it won't start. At this point it gets towed to a shop. Diagnosed as problem with HP oil system and expensive parts replaced. Of coarse it still doesn't start. Further troubleshooting figures out the problem. Engine has to be pulled, crankshaft has to be pulled to replace camshaft, lifters and the plastic lifter trays that caused the problem.

    The even better part is when Navistar developed the 6.4 they dealt with the increased friction and parasitic loss of the plastic guides by decreasing the contact area to three narrow points where the guides grip the lifters. They obsoleted the 6.0 style guides and the new style fail faster and more frequently than the original 6.0 style.

    Cliffnotes version:

    -Install steel lifter guides when you have the heads off your 6.0 or 6.4.
    -Deck and head surface finish is imperative.
    -ARP studs imperative.
    -EGR cooler and camshaft share responsibility for issues

    Don't buy into hyped up bullshit. Do your research.
    Powerstroke help puts ringed heads on when they do a bulletproof on the 6.0. This is to make up for the lesser number of headbolts.

    They refuse to work on the 6.4 nowadays because they can't get good parts for it.

    The lifters in the 7.3 6.0 and 6.4 were all the same, the 6.7 has a redesigned lifter.

    I've never once heard him talk about the camshaft being a problem. The 6.4 pushrods tend to wear out due to ppd, upgraded valvetrain weak pushrods.

    If you watch his videos he explains all the differences and shortcomings. I believe he gives a lifetime warranty on a 6.0 big dog bulletproof. He says his biggest issue with this upgrade is that he doesn't get repeat customers.

    If I bought a 6.0 up here in jersey I would definitely ship if down there to get taken care of.

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    I don't get any of this. How many years has it been since they stopped the 6.0L production? The trucks can't be worth 'saving'. You can't put lipstick on a pig. And as long as the 6.0L is under the hood, it's a pig.

    It's one of those instances where you take your loss and move on with life. Buy a whole different truck with a whole different engine.

    What's interesting is how a person can suffer a thorough thrashing at the hands of another, and return for more abuse. I guess it's the battered wife syndrome...but it happens between car companies and car owners. Ford roasted a lot of faithful truck buyers over the 6.0L and yet....they punish Ford by buying another Ford.

    My sister in law had a Volvo car. She maintained it, at the dealer, religiously. Drove like granny. It was about 5 years old and 52K miles. One day, she showed up in a new ride and I asked her what's the story. Driving down the highway, car 'stopped'. Broken crankshaft. Out of warranty. Too expensive to fix. She was really upset and told the dealer she would never buy another Volvo car. Her new ride? A Volvo SUV.

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    The biggest issue 6.0 was 04 and 05. They made updates to the motor in late 05 that solved a lot of issues. Compared to the 6.4 the 6.0 is a dead reliable engine lol. Neither hold a candle to the 6.7 but it has its issues as well, including passenger side heads cracking on the intake side allowing coolant into the motor. They also had turbo issues.

    I had a 04.5 duramax for years, all it needed was diesel and oil changes. And I got it in 2012 with 208k on it.

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    I would shop for a 7.3L.........

    My coworker put $12K into his low mileage 6.0 only 90K miles.

    It's a very well maintained truck, but after reading all the crap associated with a 6.0 either your all in or shopping....

    To be fair I drive a 7.3L and I've put maybe $12k into it over 10 yrs and I've got 260K+ miles.... and I'm due for injectors and a turbo rebuild.............

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    I expected to see recommendations here to swap in a 5.9 Cummins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    I don't get any of this. How many years has it been since they stopped the 6.0L production? The trucks can't be worth 'saving'. You can't put lipstick on a pig. And as long as the 6.0L is under the hood, it's a pig.

    It's one of those instances where you take your loss and move on with life. Buy a whole different truck with a whole different engine.

    What's interesting is how a person can suffer a thorough thrashing at the hands of another, and return for more abuse. I guess it's the battered wife syndrome...but it happens between car companies and car owners. Ford roasted a lot of faithful truck buyers over the 6.0L and yet....they punish Ford by buying another Ford.

    My sister in law had a Volvo car. She maintained it, at the dealer, religiously. Drove like granny. It was about 5 years old and 52K miles. One day, she showed up in a new ride and I asked her what's the story. Driving down the highway, car 'stopped'. Broken crankshaft. Out of warranty. Too expensive to fix. She was really upset and told the dealer she would never buy another Volvo car. Her new ride? A Volvo SUV.
    They can be a real good deal if you buy it broken and fix it right.

    If you bought one new you probably didn't fare to well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    I would shop for a 7.3L.........

    My coworker put $12K into his low mileage 6.0 only 90K miles.

    It's a very well maintained truck, but after reading all the crap associated with a 6.0 either your all in or shopping....

    To be fair I drive a 7.3L and I've put maybe $12k into it over 10 yrs and I've got 260K+ miles.... and I'm due for injectors and a turbo rebuild.............
    12K!!!! WTF???? I have 280 K on the 454 gas engine in my 1 ton Chevy since overhaul in 2000. It was 10 years old with over 200,000 miles on it at the time. Not one dime spent on it except gas and oil changes since overhaul. If a "good" one costs that much to keep running I'll be staying with a gasser.

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