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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by jermfab View Post
    Hideo “Pops” Yoshimura was known for saying: “Fast break-in, fast engine”.

    Verify that nothing is gonna fall off or fail and then run that new engine as hard as you’re able to. The idea is that you only get one chance to get rings to really “bite” against the cylinder wall. Building as much cylinder pressure as possible is the best way to accomplish that task. Probably even more true with a compression-combustion engine.



    Jeremy

    The guys who restore antique trucks are adamant that a rebuilt diesel be broken in under load. If it's a truck that's going to get driven, they go so far as to borrow a trailer with a load and buy permits if needed to put a few thousand miles on it in hill country before it becomes a hobby only truck. Otherwise they wet stack all their lives afterward.

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    Otherwise they wet stack all their lives afterward.
    I’m not a diesel guy, so I’m not familiar with “wet stack(ing?)...” In any case, regardless of whether an engine ignites its fuel or compresses it, getting the maximum amount of compression from the engine’s architecture can’t possibly be a bad thing.

    Years ago I followed a Scandinavian guy who built a lot of winning 600cc World SuperSport engines. He had two overarching philosophies for the engines he built: worry less about quantity of air-flow and more about quality. His experience was primarily in the last of the carbureted 600’s and he felt the manufacturers were making intake ports far too big and fuel atomization from the carburetor suffered as a result.

    His second tenet was that anything the manufacturers told you about “break-in” was hot garbage. These engines turn 15-17k RPM, but typically the manufacturer doesn’t want that engine spun above 8k until it had thousands of miles on the clock and 10-12k until even later. Unfortunately, when an engine makes peak power at 15,600 RPM, that rev-range is where the serious work is getting done.

    His break-in procedure was as follows:

    Find a really long hill. Like REALLY long.

    Bring the engine to temp by running up said hill in a lower gear. Get to the top and kill the engine. Coast back down, as far as you can.

    Turn around and face the hill again.

    Divide the tach into thirds and the top third again into thirds.

    The goal is to hammer the engine in a higher gear, full-throttle in the first-third of the higher RPMs, then ideally up a gear and a bit higher in the rev-range and finally, ideally in top gear, right where the engine makes peak power.

    He published dyno results from motors broken in using the factory recommendations and then using his procedures and IF you believed what he published, the results were quite impressive. His published results consistently *claimed* 5-8% HP over engines broken in the way the factories prescribed. Obviously, almost anyone can publish almost anything freely on the internet, but his published findings jived with “Pops” Yoshimura’s saying and what other well-regarded engine builders have also told me.

    Enough so, that I’ve tried hard as I could to replicate his procedures when I’ve built/rebuilt engines.

    I think the idea of adding a load with a trailer seems totally legitimate.

    I’d be looking for some hills as well.

    No matter what, don’t baby the new engine. Make it work hard in hopes it’ll keep working hard. Get all the mating surfaces happy, get the material that fresh bearings and cylinder walls and piston rings shed OUT of the engine and oil as soon as you can, change whatever oil you trust with frequency and ultimately, hope for the best.


    Jeremy

  4. #123
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    I’m not a diesel guy, so I’m not familiar with “wet stack(ing?)...”
    Unburned fuel and oil exiting the exhaust, in severe cases it runs down the outside of the exhaust.stack or collects in drops on the hood of a piece of heavy equipment. Caused by the rings not seating. If the rings are not seated immediately after initial fireup, the cylinder finish gets polished smooth before they do and the rings never seat.

  5. #124
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    With a turbodiesel you should know about where peak torque is generated for a given engine. You want very high load right out of the gate inside that narrow RPM range and no idle time.

    I find ring break in isn't too hard. What gets tricky is when you have an entire new powertrain, an un-tuned auto trans, an air bubble in the coolant system and high likelihood that one of the 4000 bolts you touched over the last 150 hours may not be 100% tight.

    I bought an engine dyno just so I can break in new turbodiesels before they go in. I figure I got better odds of keeping a 2000 gallon water tank under 150 degrees than trying to find a hill long enough without some asshole doing 45 on it.

    And like Mud touched on- Lets say you have a hot engine going in a rig that's never going to work hard. How do you put a sustained 1000 FT/LB load at 1800 RPM on a turbodiesel in a 5000 lb vehicle that can't tow?

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  7. #125
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    What reciprocating engine has 4000 bolts in it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    What reciprocating engine has 4000 bolts in it?
    It says the entire powertrain, not the engine. My work is powertrain integration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    It says the entire powertrain, not the engine. My work is powertrain integration.

    OK. Let's hear about any truck power train with 4000 fasteners, bolts or cap screws. I routinely work on steam and combustion turbines and 4000 fasteners would be a stretch for a complete disassembly of a nuclear unit , High pressure turbine and 3 low pressure turbine units and generator. Tell me where all these 4000 fasteners are in a truck engine.

  10. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    OK. Let's hear about any truck power train with 4000 fasteners, bolts or cap screws. I routinely work on steam and combustion turbines and 4000 fasteners would be a stretch for a complete disassembly of a nuclear unit , High pressure turbine and 3 low pressure turbine units and generator. Tell me where all these 4000 fasteners are in a truck engine.
    You know I really don't have an accurate count. I guess I kinda ballparked it.

    How many bolts and screws to remove the complete interior, dash and all from a modern SUV? How many fasteners hold the body to the chassis? Skidplates, fuel tanks, wiring clips, etc. Then you have drivelines and differentials, transfercase, transmission- There's quite a few little fasteners in the valve body 50 maybe? Don't forget the grill!

    There's about 250 individual parts with lots of fasteners in each that I make that go into putting the pieces together so I just assumed by the time it took to do the rest that there was 20 or so times more fasteners in the rest of the job.

    I did GE LM2500 maintenance for 3 years. I don't remember there being that many fasteners in turbines. They're kinda right out there in the open.

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  12. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jermfab View Post
    Hideo “Pops” Yoshimura was known for saying: “Fast break-in, fast engine”.

    Verify that nothing is gonna fall off or fail and then run that new engine as hard as you’re able to. The idea is that you only get one chance to get rings to really “bite” against the cylinder wall. Building as much cylinder pressure as possible is the best way to accomplish that task. Probably even more true with a compression-combustion engine.



    Jeremy
    Exactly! Cylinder pressure is everything during "break-in". Which should happen very fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    The guys who restore antique trucks are adamant that a rebuilt diesel be broken in under load. If it's a truck that's going to get driven, they go so far as to borrow a trailer with a load and buy permits if needed to put a few thousand miles on it in hill country before it becomes a hobby only truck. Otherwise they wet stack all their lives afterward.
    Many a stand-by gen-set has never performed @ 100% for the simple fact that they have never been worked.

    This is the biggest issue with modern, emissions laden diesel pick-ups. They need to work!
    If you buy a diesel for your wife to fetch groceries? Do not expect 12 valve Cummins reliability/longevity from it.
    If all the truck ever sees is short jaunts around the neighborhood or across town? That truck is going to be an un-reliable PITA!
    They need to work!

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  14. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    You know I really don't have an accurate count. I guess I kinda ballparked it.

    How many bolts and screws to remove the complete interior, dash and all from a modern SUV? How many fasteners hold the body to the chassis? Skidplates, fuel tanks, wiring clips, etc. Then you have drivelines and differentials, transfercase, transmission- There's quite a few little fasteners in the valve body 50 maybe? Don't forget the grill!

    There's about 250 individual parts with lots of fasteners in each that I make that go into putting the pieces together so I just assumed by the time it took to do the rest that there was 20 or so times more fasteners in the rest of the job.

    I did GE LM2500 maintenance for 3 years. I don't remember there being that many fasteners in turbines. They're kinda right out there in the open.

    I've worked on the installation of LMS100s and it's much more complex.There are a lot of small fasteners (like 432 3/8" and 5/16" to connect the supercore and booster so maybe that many . Not sure how everything is right out there in the open on a non field serviceable item.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    I've worked on the installation of LMS100s and it's much more complex.There are a lot of small fasteners (like 432 3/8" and 5/16" to connect the supercore and booster so maybe that many . Not sure how everything is right out there in the open on a non field serviceable item.
    What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

    You are welcome to come over and count bolts while I'm working. The more I think about it I really don't think 4000 fasteners is any kind of exaggeration at all for the projects I do.

    Counting bolts aside, my point is when all that stuff has been altered installing an engine that has been run in on a dyno makes it nicer.

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    I thought the days of "break in" and "seating rings" went away 30-40 years ago.
    We do have a member who by now has probably billions under his belt but has not commentated.
    Most current engines are never fired up until the vehicle is totally assembled and at that time it had better meet all emissions right out of the gate.
    Old enough to remember the days but things have changed on new build.
    That said rebuild shops vary and some still making 1950's holes now. A problem may exist in that modern rings don't like this and could take even longer to seat than before.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I thought the days of "break in" and "seating rings" went away 30-40 years ago.
    We do have a member who by now has probably billions under his belt but has not commentated.
    Most current engines are never fired up until the vehicle is totally assembled and at that time it had better meet all emissions right out of the gate.
    Old enough to remember the days but things have changed on new build.
    That said rebuild shops vary and some still making 1950's holes now. A problem may exist in that modern rings don't like this and could take even longer to seat than before.
    Bob
    I fail to see the relationship between a new engine factory where everything is controlled VS rebuilds.

    I don't do engine machinework, but when I have it done I spec what I want and measure it to the best of my ability. Even then I can't measure what the big boys can.

    All those variables in rebuild machinework. Then you have the quality of the parts you're using. They aren't the same parts used on the assembly line.

    All the rings I have bought in the past 2 decades have come with a little pamphlet saying to run the piss out of it and don't let it idle.

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  19. #134
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    what kind of rings are you using?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    what kind of rings are you using?
    Mahle rings

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post

    Many a stand-by gen-set has never performed @ 100% for the simple fact that they have never been worked.
    Petters UK made gen-sets, when they were first run they were run wide open under full load. The Gen-sets were wired to large cabinets full of finned electrical elements of 1-10kw each to provide a load on the gen-set. My Dad built those load units, and I remember many a fun day installing those load elements (NOT) in the cabinets.

    Some of these units were about the size of a large commercial refrigerator, and could be paralled to provide additional capacity for very large gen-sets

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    Load banks they are called here,and you can rent them from the big generator sales and service crowds...........Incidentally ,when I was at GM-H.....the cars came off the assembly line ,had a gallon of fuel put in them,and did a big burn out off the line out into the yard......one time a car off the line crashed into a forklift carrying a crate of windshields...Into the panel shop for a straighten out and sold as a taxi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Load banks they are called here,and you can rent them from the big generator sales and service crowds...........Incidentally ,when I was at GM-H.....the cars came off the assembly line ,had a gallon of fuel put in them,and did a big burn out off the line out into the yard......one time a car off the line crashed into a forklift carrying a crate of windshields...Into the panel shop for a straighten out and sold as a taxi.
    I wish we had Holdens here. Like a RWD Honda civic with a big block V8. I spent a couple weeks north of Perth in a small town. Fun place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I thought the days of "break in" and "seating rings" went away 30-40 years ago.
    That said rebuild shops vary and some still making 1950's holes now. A problem may exist in that modern rings don't like this and could take even longer to seat than before.
    Bob
    No, never going to happen. How could it? The rings have to be broken in. The process has changed a lot in recent years though.
    There are way more variables now than there used to be. Used to be almost all rings were ductile cast iron. And, you could use a pretty standard procedure.
    Any more there are many materials being used for rings. At both the OEM and aftermarket levels. And coatings.
    And, even many different cylinder materials. With lots being plated these days. And each requires a different finish in the cylinder. And break in procedure.
    All the different materials and their corresponding appropriate surface finishes determine how long the break in procedure will take. Or more importantly:
    How much time you have to make sure it happens! This is where the really good builders separate themselves from most home builders.
    Another thing that has changed is that a lot of myths and wives-tales have been exposed as B.S. and the proper science is much more readily available.

    When I was really young I lived two-stroke dirt bikes. And the rule was always take it easy on a new top end for a certain amount of fuel.
    Well a few cold seizures in to my hobby, I lucked out when I sent one cylinder to Eric Gorr for a new plating job.
    He told me all about break-in (in that application). I followed his knowledge religiously. And that was the end of my un-reliable two-strokes.

    I don't claim to know all the details about this stuff. But, I do know there are a lot of things to factor these days when it comes to "break-in".
    And the only thing we are concerned with during break-in is seating the rings. Any other metal to metal contact is bad.
    And getting that break-in oil out of there immediately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Mahle rings
    what type?


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