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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    what type?
    I'm gonna go with mahle rings for engine pistons...but it's only a guess

  2. #142
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    I see you all are still following this thread so I will post one more thing. I mentioned when I picked the truck up after the engine installation it sounded a little different - a little louder than previously. I wasn't too concerned because I figured it was just the way the exhaust was bolted up when the new engine went in.

    Well, we were on our way to drop my son off after summer leave at West Point - and if you're familiar with the location we were coming down a pretty long hill toward the Stony Lonesome entrance and as the engine was idling it started to "ring/whistle" and it was loud enough that it kinda hurt our ears. When we got to the parking area I hopped out and it was quieting down but I could still hear it and it sounded like it was coming from the back of the engine. I blipped the throttle a couple of times and it would change pitch and sometimes go away. Nothing to do but turn around and drive 500 miles back to Ohio - I wasn't gonna leave the truck out of state again.

    I searched around the internet and most returns pointed to a cracked bellows at the Y-pipe. I felt around and sure enough - there was a crack in one of the bellows - it's a funny sound for a cracked exhaust pipe. A couple of hot sweaty days and it's nice and quiet again. Actually sounds like it did years ago.

    Oh yeah - one more thing on that, it had started to smoke a little on start-up. That went away when I swapped the y-pipe. No smoke - even on cold starts. I have about 3,500 miles on it so far and all is still good.

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  4. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    A dodge 6.4l hemi ?
    Be nice. For an oil-burner, it's the Cummins inline 6 you'd want, anyway.

    Sad thing about Ford's engines when they say:

    Q: "What's the most Reliable of all the Land Rovers?"


    A: "Toyota Land Cruiser!"

    A more pragmatic soul simply designed the goods to put a more durable engine in a Range Rover in place of that 5.0 L 32-valve DOHC Ford with the Rube Goldberg slithering-serpent timing chain insanity.

    GMC.

    Rockerbox, yet!

    Joe? "Next time..." and with a "Fix Or Recycle Daily" there will BE a "next time"...

    Cummins!!!

    You KNOW you want to!

    Because a Gardner Diesel won't pass emissions.


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  6. #144
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    Thermite - haha - yeah, if it hadn't broken down out of state I would have gone with a Cummins. There's a place close to where I live that specializes in powerstroke to Cummins conversions with lots of happy customers - so yeah - if I ever have to do it again - and I don't have other constraints I am dealing with - I would likely go with a Cummins.

    I am not unhappy with the power or performance of the Powerstroke, just not as robust of a design as the Cummins. I did go with the studded heads so hopefully that's a game changer. I know they call that "bullet-proofed" - sheesh ... what a stupid term! What mechanical gizmo that exists anywhere in this world is "bulletproof"?!

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  8. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Miranda View Post
    I know they call that "bullet-proofed" - sheesh ... what a stupid term! What mechanical gizmo that exists anywhere in this world is "bulletproof"?!
    Wellll.... as a brand-new 2LT Combat Engineer, '66.. BOQ space non-existent.. three of us pooled our allowances for a 3 BR 2 bath off-base flat near Ft. Belvoir.

    Downstairs neighbour was a USN Commander. Former XO. BB62.

    HIS buddy.. J. Edward Snyder, Jr. . might be the only human as ever walked I actually ENVY.

    - For the message he was able to send one dark night off the coast of Vee Ettt Naaaaam.

    Some piss-ant with a lone 3"-50 ..in a hull about small USCG cutter size .. had challenged him.. threatened to "open fire" 'coz Snyder's hull - sailing under strict radio silence - had not identified itself when challenged... by radio call.., from the piss-ant...

    Reply was conveyed by blinker.. with a freakin' blister-the-paint at-a-thousand-yards 24" US Navy Searchlight:


    AA - NEW JERSEY BB62

    OPEN FIRE WHEN READY

    FEAR GOD

    DREADNOUGHT

    New Jersey Reply

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  10. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    Q: "What's the most Reliable of all the Land Rovers?"


    A: "Toyota Land Cruiser!"
    I've converted quite a number of folks to 80 series owners simply by suggesting they poke around underneath one. Most people have no idea an 80 series is not a 4runner.

  11. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    I've converted quite a number of folks to 80 series owners simply by suggesting they poke around underneath one. Most people have no idea an 80 series is not a 4runner.
    It ain't a MIL-SPEC real-deal-not-fake HMMWV, either.

    The 2011 SWB RRS HSI De-loooks is for Old Age comfort and easier parking than a Bentley Arnage "Red Label" I cudda had.. or the long-wheelbase XJ8-L I do have..

    My mud games are ancient hist'ry.

    But still. That "FORDJAGUAR" AJ timing chain & tensioner design - steel chain meant to SLIDE over a whole TRIBE of reversed-curve cast shiney-wood sectors?

    Beyond daft:

    Jaguar Land Rover Timing Chain Lawsuit Says Engines Fail | CarComplaints.com

    This looks more attractive:

    Land Rover/Range Rover SPORT Complete LS Engine Swap Kit – Levels Performance

    Buggerabunchaturboenvaginators. All I want is a reliable motor.

  12. #148
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    Default 6.0L powerstroke possible replacement

    Plenty of dead-reliable engines out there… trouble is they won’t meet modern emissions requirements, often are of an architecture that doesn’t fit under the hood of newer cars and typically don’t like passing gas stations.

    They’re also typically twice the displacement for a given output compared to modern engines.

    I’ve got a 93 F250 with the multiport EFI 460.
    Compression is strong and more importantly, it’s within a couple PSI across all 8 cylinders. The conventional oil gets changed quite frequently. I might get 11 MPG… downhill… with a STRONG tailwind. I bought it with 140k on the odometer and I probably won’t put more than 5-6k miles a year on until I lose interest or something besides the engine breaks.

    The 2021 F150 beats my truck in nearly every category save torque output and GVWR…
    The 3.3L V6 in the new truck makes 290 HP, 45 more ponies than the V8 7.5L. My truck can carry a bit more in the bed, the new truck actually tows a bit more… I’d rather have the close to 30% more torque the big block generates to get that mass moving, likely the additional mass of the old truck will help slow that load as well…

    Chances are the new truck does it all while delivering around 20 MPG. It handles better, it stops better. It’s got a warrantee…

    The way I look at it, I’ve got better than $30k to spend on gas.

    Its my opinion that fuel injection, coupled with a modicum of maintenance, not to mention the decades of development, should make any stock OHV GM or Ford V8 closer to a 200k mile engine. The same engine carbureted isn’t gonna go much more than 125k before the rings are washed and there isn’t enough compression for combustion.

    Both are shy of what we believe is “diesel mileage”… but the new, emissions controlled diesels aren’t getting “diesel mileage”… at least not without significant investment.

    When I was growing up it was GOSPEL that a small block Chevrolet engine turned into a hand grenade around the 400 HP mark. That engine was barely streetable, hardly idled and only really ran good at full throttle.

    These days guys drive 1200 horsepower LS engines daily and make that power on the stock bottom end.

    The biggest problem with the most recent generation of cars is that any stories of them lasting far beyond 100k miles or so will be purely anecdotal.

    Mechanically the engine may be perfect. Mechanically it may be ready for another 300k miles… Something else on the vehicle, likely electronic, will be prohibitively expensive to replace/repair. The slightest bit of corrosion on a body control signal harness will make the vehicle undriveable. The doors won’t lock… or the headlights won’t work… after 100k the diagnostic work alone is nearing untenable.

    Who cares how reliable the engine is?!?

    The dealer is the only shop capable of servicing the latest offerings and they make it clear they want to see you and your new car as rarely as possible. Over a year of average driving before they even change the oil… for the dealer, ideally, only a few additional visits before the end of the extended warrantee period, at which point the dealership would just as soon only see you coming to purchase another, newer vehicle from them.

    Maybe there’s an independent with the equipment AND aptitude to diagnose and repair whatever your problem is. He still isn’t likely to have the bay space AND erroneous lifts of the dealers service department. The independent isn’t likely to have an unused lift to store your Super Duty cab on while we replaces the turbo… or some $9 sensor.

    For me personally, the vehicles of the nineties are likely to be the ones I seek moving forward. Because I can most likely FIX them.

    Thermite, I believe you made mention of the latest Range Rover V8. Phenomenal thing! Makes incredible power while delivering enough economy for a vehicle in its class.

    The timing arrangement is LUDICROUS!!! Three or four too many chains… intermediate gears driving, if memory serves, the variable valve timing pumps? Whatever sorcery is going on under the timing cover, it works really well for the full warrantee period. Barely a hitch. Who cares anyway? Dealer eats the cost if you spit a timing belt within the warrantee period. It’s my understanding that these incredible engines almost never have timing chain troubles before 80-90k. The great bulk of them are getting NOISY by 100k and you’re on borrowed time after 110k or so.

    I know an independent with tenacity and small hands who will do a barely audible Range Rover timing chain for $12k. MINIMUM. He’s confident in his ability to perform the job without pulling the motor at that price… and he’s got to take apart enough stuff he can nickel and dime the customer to offset any additional time it takes him… remember, this timing set hasn’t yet broken or worn badly enough to create other problems.

    A $30k+/- replacement motor is probably the best VALUE, if the timing set breaks. That doesn’t include the cost of the motor swap. Chances are the quickly increasing costs start making the 0% APR the dealership offers on the $100k +/- 2020/21 model Range Rovers look like an even better value. Financing a replacement engine and costs on an out of warrantee European car isn’t something your local bank, or USAA is gonna want to do.

    There’s also growing evidence that synthetic oils aren’t that much better long term than conventional motor oil. Synthetic oil keeps better lubrication and longer, but it eventually breaks down and is as much affected as conventional oil to overheating. Synthetic oil typically doesn’t turn to sludgy tar at the bottom of the sump, it does turn into crystals with equal oil-galley clogging potential to conventional sludge. My understanding is the crystalline structure synthetic oil can build is most likely a result of short trips where the oil approaches operating temperature, but does so against cold engine castings that never even get warm.

    The cause isn’t nearly as pertinent as the effect when manufacturers are using tiny amounts of highly pressurized engine oil to control say… valve timing, or an Atkinson cycle in an engine tuned for maximum efficiency and then forcing that oil through tiny metered galleys. It doesn’t matter how low the friction coefficient 0w10 has if oil can’t get where it’s needed. Or if the knock sensor is buried deep under a multi-piece intake casting that takes a man day just to access.

    Especially when ONLY the dealership has both the specialty tools needed to remove said intake or the software suite necessary to diagnose the faulty knock sensor. Quite frankly, I’d be hard pressed to create the emotional connection required to want to fix a car I know can be reduced to speed limited limp-home-mode by a sensor that still appears to be in spec.

    As much in awe I often find myself of the capacity of even the most pedestrian late model cars, there is a distinct compromise that comes with owning the latest and greatest. More and more that compromise isn’t just the immediate depreciation the moment the car becomes yours or the additional costs of comprehensive insurance as required by the financier. It’s not even the thought of sitting in a confined space signing reams of paper while some scumbag sales manager coughs on me.

    I love to gamble… but the number one rule is to not gamble any money you can’t afford to walk away from. Definitely don’t borrow money or pay interest to gamble with.

    Gambling on my ability to maintain, in a rational and financially responsible fashion, any modern car or truck makes as much sense as accepting insurance in blackjack… or covering red and black on the outside of a roulette table. Best case chance for all three strategies is the barest minimum of losing. You can hope to lose LESS money over a longer time period… but none of these strategies will create a winner.




    Be safe





    Jeremy


    (On edit) as impressive as the GM LS-platform is, with the $3k adapter kit seeming *fairly* reasonable, you still have to provide an engine worth installing (far easier than) a competent tech to do the install. The mechanical aspect should be a task well within the means of most of the members of this forum… even making the package run and drive probably isn’t beyond the plurality here. Fooling the state emissions computers into BELIEVING that GM LS engine is actually a Rover power plant is a much harder feat. State smog checks don’t apply to all, but my smartest money would be on any late-model Range Rover being registered in a district that requires a smog check. Just look at where their dealer network is…
    Last edited by jermfab; 07-23-2021 at 10:01 AM.

  13. #149
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    Superb post, and "spot on" Jeremy. Thank you for that!

    Quote Originally Posted by jermfab View Post
    Thermite, I believe you made mention of the latest Range Rover V8. Phenomenal thing! Makes incredible power while delivering enough economy for a vehicle in its class.

    The timing arrangement is LUDICROUS!!!
    Flattery. You are being overly kind! It's freakin' INSANE!!!




    I know an independent with tenacity and small hands who will do a barely audible Range Rover timing chain for $12k. MINIMUM. He’s confident in his ability to perform the job without pulling the motor at that price… and he’s got to take apart enough stuff he can nickel and dime the customer to offset any additional time it takes him… remember, this timing set hasn’t yet broken or worn badly enough to create other problems.
    I am one who CAN do that, and have done "similar". I've priced-out the tools I would need to buy. But I'm not sure I can justify the effort at all.

    Even with the allegedly "improved" tensioners, it is still an insane piece of shit, engineering-wise.

    So I can. My labour... and just under $3,000 in tools and parts.

    But am not convinced it is worth the effort to "buy" only about another 50,000 "for-sure" miles, twice that? Only "maybe".

    Even though that MIGHT be all I ask of it before I hang up driving anything at all.

    Y'see.. if something else doesn't kill me first, I'll be 90 in another 13 years, and that is about when my tribe usually quits driving, altogether and hires a minder "now and then" to run the odd errand.

    An engine swap - nowhere near "trivial"- but still... is FAR less work.
    And a LOT more fun!



    Most especially when it has been done before, and the emissions, exhaust, suspension, and (part-time) AWD drive-line challenges ALL sorted out.

    As is now the case for the 2011 Range Rover Sport I own one of.
    The 2005 Jaguar XJ-8L 4.2 V8 is amenable to GMC re-powering also.

    And "Yes". I did that "double-jeopardy" Jaguar/Land Rover risk a-purpose! not by accident. And after extensive research! Calculated risk, going-in, IOW. Not blind to it.

    I'd be delighted to operate the all-aluminium XJ8-L the rest of my days.
    The Range Rover is REALLY nice "ride" as well.

    But.. I CAN afford to ... write off either or both, outright.. straight to the crusher .. go off and restore a vintage Bentley.. build a 1934 Alvis "Speed 20" replica from scratch.. go "all electric" .. or hybrid.. and/or even get by with no vehicle at all.

    No "Day Job", no family needs. Just groceries.. several really good stores literally in "walking distance".. and the rest deliver, long since, anyway.

    I am not even TOO badly limited to WHERE on the planet I feel like living.

    Most folks don't have that level of flexibility. Lifestyle, responsibility / NOT.. OR economic freedom.

    Most especially not in generally "personal vehicle essential for lifestyle" North America.

    Wife and I DO have it. And that was not an accident!

    So I may as well take advantage of it..

    And how does one do that?

    The same way I/we got to be financially independent to begin with:

    - Count each month either set of wheels serves me against what I used to pay for a leased "middle-luxury" level company car.

    EG: BMW 5 series, Renault Laguna, Luxo SUV/VAN.. etc..

    Say $500 a month, each, $1000 total, $12,000/year.

    - WHEN EITHER/ANY of them shits its messkit too expensively?

    Off they go for recycling of body parts . or wotever.


    And off I/we go ....to find the NEXT set of "interesting" wheels.


    Women..one can love.. for a lifetime. They may even love you BACK. Or pretend well enough. Be grateful, either way.

    Vehicles? That's nuts!

    Expendable commodities that can not, and DO NOT, give the least damn about YOU! Nor pretend to. Nor even fake the sex!



    Getting overly attached to cars, trucks, boats, or airplanes is easily as insane as that rube-goldberg chain drive nonsense in the FOMOCO/Jag/Land Rover V8's nose!

    One just does not.

    They will NEVER "love you back".

    Even if you volunteer to take it in the economic a**, then "sleep in the wet spot"... at dealer prices, even...



    If thine ride, eyed, offends you? Chuck it out!


    Joe?

    Truck fails you? Don't "revere it". Replace it.

    It's no different, functionally, than a pair of cotton socks.
    Manufactured in VOLUME!

    And meant to serve YOU.

    Not the reverse.


  14. #150
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    Default 6.0L powerstroke possible replacement

    What a tangled web we weave! Somehow a thread about medium duty diesel Fords has morphed into a discussion about General Motors engines in Range Rover chassis. I’m about to mention a Toyota Camry… just because.

    Threads like this are why PM is the only “social media” I can be bothered to maintain… I’ve got too much real-world living for FaceSpace or Twatter.

    Thermite, what follows is directed primarily towards our most recent banter, beyond the Rover/LS bits, the rest of it is some of the best advice I’ve ever been given.



    Take my dearly missed grandmothers advice: pick an age you like and just stick with it. She was fond of 75 and stayed there right up to her 100th birthday. She drove herself into her late-90’s. At some point after her 90th the state of Ohio took to only issuing her a drivers license in six month intervals. She had to come in bi-annually and pass a vision test to get the license renewed. At 79 she drove herself to the dealership and bought her final car so she could go visit my grandfather in his assisted living home, most importantly she could make that visit as she pleased and on her own schedule. My uncle is still driving that car, a 1994 Toyota Camry… he’s probably put 200% more miles on it than she did. I’d still hazard there’s a zero at the front of the odometer.

    Grandma couldn’t beat time for her remaining years… she aged every bit of the years from 100-103 and significantly more in the months before she died just shy of 104. Some event, more than likely a stroke, took a heavy toll… being in a home with all those OLD PEOPLE didn’t do her any favors, but it was the doctor telling her that he just couldn’t let her go back home that drove the final nail.

    Thankfully my mom was there with grandma for her last lucid moments. She was able to relay grandma’s last words for me and my son. I’m even more thankful that mom was driving back home and not there to experience what followed when the lucidity slipped away.

    The hospice care workers had warned both mom and my uncle the possibility of one or both moments were good for a person in her state… it still didn’t prepare Greg for his frail, dying mother, totally lucid and coherent shortly before, trying to fight her way out of her bed while accusing him of placing a dead cat in her deathbed with her.

    I was there with mom to see what remained before the last of her body died. I’m totally fine believing she held on for me to say my goodbyes and to hear the rest of the family say theirs on the phone. We stayed with her until late that final night and as was typical of that simple West Virginia farmers daughter, she was kind enough to wait until we’d gone back to her little house to die. She wasn’t the sort to make an inconvenience of herself.

    No one can fight off the reaper forever, but equal parts purpose and mental fortitude can give the motherfucker a run for his money. I watched a woman tiny in stature, yet massive in heart do it most of my life.

    Far be it from me to suggest how anyone spend their time, twilight years or not…

    I’m no fan of Rover products. European car makers at large seem to favor complexity for its own sake, unfortunately for the British, the Germans do it a little better in my opinion. If the challenge of swapping an LS engine into a Range Rover chassis gives you a needed task to complete, have at it.

    My best, friendliest and non-judgmental advice is to be very certain you can make the electronics work before you spend a penny. I’m sure you are more than capable of every part of the mechanical parts. Its my understanding that it doesn’t take much of a mechanic/technician to get a complete LS motor and engine management harness running in all manner of chassis’. It’s also my understanding that the factory LS computer will support significant hot-rodding before it can’t keep up with demand. There’s a reason the LS engine beat out the venerable small block platform so quickly.

    The biggest hurdle I see will be the little niggling shit. Getting the Range Rover gauges to work as they should. Keeping the factory shifter and function, or replacing it with something that doesn’t look like hammered dog shit and also functions… and then still there may be one MAJOR hurdle left to overcome, which will be passing whatever emissions test your locality requires to keep the vehicle on the road legally.

    I mean, you’re no fool, you’re not gonna spend precious money and far more precious TIME only to hose-clamp a mechanical Sun tach to the column, or chew a hole through the Rover console. The BURL, man!

    I don’t mean to project, while I wouldn’t dream of such a project or even in a comparable, but more preferable to me, chassis… I live close to work, work is in a city and while most of my state of Georgia doesn’t yet require emissions compliance, I’d rather deal with that small hassle than hour-plus commutes. I know I have neither the aptitude nor wavelength to get such a project over the finish line. I’d be stuck with a fantastic chassis, with lovely interior appointments, a reliable engine that runs well and can be easily and cheaply replaced or upgraded… that I couldn’t do a fucking thing with legally…

    I hope I’m still shy of the halfway point of my life, but I wouldn’t want to do all that work to have to stick the thing in a bag for the next 15 years until I can enjoy the fruits of my labor.

    Grandma could probably still count the number of drinks she’d had in her long life without taking off her shoes… I doubt she ever even smoked a cigarette and surely nothing else. At her hundredth birthday celebration she proudly told the “bluest” joke she knew, not a single curse word in it. She would scold me for the language, but I KNOW she’d agree with the sentiment:



    Until the time comes when even this is too much effort, busy yourself and if he comes calling, tell the reaper he can go fuck himself, you have things to do. He can come back later, but really ought to call first, you plan on being busy then too.

    Grandma wasn’t a stranger to death. She first met him nearly a hundred years before she didn’t have it in her anymore. She narrowly survived the influenza in 1918… family lore is my great grandfather had all but carved the headstone. My great grandfather probably blamed himself as he watched his youngest daughter fight death away the first time. He was a successful farmer and had paid to bring electric service to his farm and let the neighbors along the way tap into his service, if they wanted. His farm had the county’s only telephone and it’s most likely that my grandmother caught the influenza from a neighbor who’d come to call the local doctor on that phone.

    Grandma told death to fuck off and leave her alone again before she’d finished primary school. She was one of few survivors of a school bus crash that killed many of her classmates, including her best friend at the time, who was sharing the seat with her.

    She fended him off through two bouts with breast cancer and ensuing double mastectomies.

    I loaded my infant son up and RACED the 500 miles up I-75 four years ago. Grandma started having chest pains and was admitted to the hospital. The chest pains began while she was on a bus taking her and other elderly citizens from the town senior center to the YMCA. As was her fashion, she didn’t even alert the bus driver until the other passengers were offloaded and then asked the driver to please take her to the hospital.

    Until right before her 100th she was at the Y every day save Sunday, either swimming or using the gym there. The same doctor that couldn’t let her go home advised her to slow down a bit after that one… think about doing a little less swimming and a little more floating. At that point he was more open to compromise, understanding that having something to do and people to do it with was more important than spending her remaining time worrying about a possible heart attack. She might have told that doctor how important her business was! Who else was gonna take care of all these old people?!? He released her, without even a recommendation for bed rest. Such orders would have still be totally disregarded in those days. She was back at home and greeted me and the little guy when we got in. I was in far worse shape from the experience than she, but nobody ever expected her to exceed the speed limit and make that drive in personal record time. Grandma made Saxon’s acquaintance while I unpacked the car. I hadn’t brought myself a change of clothes, but thankfully I didn’t forget the diaper bag or my camera.

    I wanted to make sure My son had a picture of him with his great-grandmother. Grandma walked us to her front door to see us safely off on our return trip and told the little dude she couldn’t wait to see him walking the next time. She got to see him walk, even run. Her her eyesight and hearing were competing for which would completely fail first, so no way of telling if she heard the words he got to say to her. He didn’t get to KNOW grandma, but he has honest memories of her, which is the best I could have wished for.

    Not a human alive wouldn’t be lucky to have the strength that tiny old woman showed time and again.

    It’s been just about two years… mom is actually back in Ohio and was at her parents gravesite today.

    I’d figure out how to build that LS-powered Range Rover and deliver it to your driveway if I could get another day with her in return.

    Be safe




    Jeremy
    Last edited by jermfab; 07-23-2021 at 03:06 PM.

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    A customer of mine bought his wife a new Supercharged Land Rover a couple years ago.

    He took it hunting.

    Wife just about fucking divorced him. He got it cleaned up, but was forbidden from touching the Land Rover again.

    Guy commissions an 80 series to be built for his hunting rig.

    First week of ownership wife drives the cruiser and refuses to give it back. Says he can drive the Range Rover all he wants.

    2 months later guy picks up his 2nd built 80 series. Range Rover sits until it's sold.

    Both cruisers were built for about the cost of the one Range Rover. They are 10 times the vehicle in every way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jermfab View Post
    ... there may be one MAJOR hurdle left to overcome, which will be passing whatever emissions test your locality requires to keep the vehicle on the road legally.
    ROFL!

    "Where you stand on a(ny) issue, depends on where you sit." Or HAVE sat.

    Slipped a $20 to a GMC guy to go off for 20 minutes and wander about whilst I pulled the data off his Microfiche display as to which IC pinouts end up where on the 90-degree V6 GMC 4.3.

    Go home, attach the logic analyzer. get what I need as to the OEM. Do my jackleg calulations for the altered exhaust, intake, and TBI swop.

    Drag an S-100 PROM blaster down out of the attic.. because GM used OLD IC's..

    Over across the adjacent County line to an inspection station in Fairfax County (Loudoun County did not YET require emissions, but were scheduled to do..).

    "Gee, I wish they were ALL like that!'

    Readings were ALL off the bottom of range. Better than GMC... and good as gold emissions levels. And the 1984 "Wagoneer" (Cherokee with nicer upholstery) clocked 131 MPH by stopwatch.

    That wasn't the big deal. That the power band was electric-motor flat and wide WAS. Shifting the 5-speed had become near as dammit "optional".

    Gauges? Not even worth mention how EASY those were THEN whilst still all analog.

    Easier yet now that they are simply lied-to by codes off a data bus. You get to CHOOSE what the lie to be told will be.

    Y'see.. my pension ain't FROM working a wrench, machine-tool, nor a torch-tip. Those are (among) my "hobbies"..

    Weapons systems .. then Global telecoms..."electron pushing" and IS/IT rather.. vacuum tube days to present-day.

    So what is hard for a "mechanic" - even one VERY well-up on the 'tronics? is EASY for a data guru who can and has designed the goods ... from a bare board.. and codes or hacks in a "many" languages, native machine-code to high-level.

    Electrons ... registers.. and data packets ... do as they are told to do.

    But the same economics still apply!

    Life is SHORT.
    More money is easier to arrange than more TIME.

    And a "new ride" is more interesting than an old, familiar, one..

    -"Reliable" is just another word for "boring".

    - "Freedom" just another word for "nothing left to lose".

    Replacement wheels... never, never, never, NEVER .. "new", ALWAYs "used", as we have a confiscatory 4 1/2% ANNUAL Personal Property tax on Blue Book Value here... are usually also CHEAPER.

    So I just enjoy them while they ARE cheap..

    ...write them off.. and move on to the next new and INTERESTING one.

    Now.. I eventually found it prudent to "quit that s**t" .....
    ...with wimmin'...

    But I can still do it with MOTORCARS!




    "Dirty little secret?"

    When.. we have a "tour" to do? Be it USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealad, Europe.....or just DC to New York.... or up the West Coast.. Lost Wages or South Tahoe, local?

    Or to haul home machinery?

    We RENT a brand-new vehicle of the appropriate sort for the tour.

    Mustan 5.0 convertibles, Lincoln Town Cars, Audi Tourist Trophy.. Alfa-75..to Renault "Espace" or VW Touran... Citroen/PSA C3.. Lancia Musa ...Mercedes, (I LIKE Euro-diesels!) Also ... Penske 26-foot box..

    Whatever fits the need OF THE MOMENT.

    Which changes, yah?

    And we have the latest and best.. with full road service - even a replacement if need be. And it is the right FIT for the task to-hand.

    Most of the year, you "run what you got" .... and put up with the quirks.. so long as you are within affordable rollback range of home.

    The priority shifts?

    You run the best they have. But only very briefly.

    It ends up CHEAPER that way.

    Really. Do the math. Vehicles OR wimmin'

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    I’m not saying can’t or shouldn’t be done. I know there’s Jeep guys that have figured out how to run the GM engine management computer piggybacked to the Chrysler body control computer. The purpose is to trick the state smog computer into not believing the inspectors lying eyes, should he pop the hood. No sir, that is NOT an 8-cylinder engine manufactured by a Jeep competitor. Thats a a six-cylinder with no check engine light burning, running happily and within spec.

    I can only speak to Georgia and Nevada emissions checks, and Nevada only on a pre-OBDII vehicle. As with Georgia and pre-OBDII vehicles, those checks actually seemed effective. The car was put under a load on rollers and readings were taken under-hood, at the tailpipe and by the gas door. It didn’t matter what who’s computer had to say… either the actual running engine of the vehicle in question produced emissions values acceptable to pass emissions… or it didn’t.

    Given that scenario I have no question that even a tuned LS engine would be better, more efficient and pollute less than any vehicle I ever put on those rollers.

    Problem is now, in Georgia at least, the emissions test does nothing to verify whether a vehicle is actually emitting or not.

    The computer on the state side “talks” to the vehicle computer and either the vehicle computer is happy: no CEL, no more than one emissions system not ready, ie the drive cycle has been completed and no trace of electronic tomfoolery. The inspector is *supposed* to visually verify that the catalytic converters are present, but I’ve never known a state inspector to actually do so. That gets the registered owner the pleasure of proceeding to the tag office and spending more money for the next years sticker.

    I’m a proud Luddite, so I have trouble with anything in this realm beyond the theoretical. I’m not saying it can’t be done, but I’m not well-equipped to do it.

    My understanding is that more computery-types, far better equipped than I have written codes for this very purpose, but the only such things I’m aware of that are commercially available are for LS-to Jeep Wrangler swaps.
    I scarcely have the knowledge to even understand if that’s difficult or how much so.

    I do know that Jeeps guys love their Jeep’s and doing stuff to them. It strikes me that the rarest Jeeps I see on the roads are ones still with factory wheels and little tires. I bet a good percentage of wranglers are wearing aftermarket wheels before the leave the dealership showroom. My point is that Jeep stuff is enough of a guaranteed market to be able to rationalize fairly significant R&D… Rover far less so…

    All the same, my bet is that unless done extremely well, plugging the state smog computer into this theoretical LS-Range Rover is gonna take some work to not raise an immediate red flag and more than likely just not allow the test to proceed. I don’t expect the inspector to do anything more than hand over a failed emissions test. He’s not paid to care WHY the computer didn’t do what it’s supposed to. He’s not likely to pop the hood or investigate any farther. Just: “sorry sir, something is weird with the computer and I can’t administer the test… maybe try again tomorrow.”…

    Beyond that, I do know that anything from England with an engine has historically been more than able to “fuck up a wet dream”.

    A friend of my dad’s shares your affinity, for Jaguars at least, both old and new. This friend doesn’t have the ability personally to do this sort of swap, but he’s done well and can pay someone else to do it for him, a reality I am more than a little envious of.

    He had built for himself an XK120 body grafted to a late model XJ6 chassis and running gear. The work is beautiful and masterfully executed… but not without a fair level of effort involved.

    They ruined the original XJ wiring harness trying to cut out system believed to be irrelevant. Why does a convertible coupe need window switch or motor circuits? We can surely eliminate those… the third mount taillight circuit can’t be needed either.

    It turned out that stretching and shrinking the XJ frame was EASY in comparison to mounting totally unnecessary items like window motors and switches in the XK body. Especially when doing so required extending the harness to allow these items to hide out of sight… all while making good splices in thin wire and not altering the impedance enough to affect the minute voltages the body control is programmed to interpret.

    As ridiculous as it sounds, something as stupid and little as a window switch not being in place was enough to start a snowball effect that ultimately made the car VERY UNHAPPY! Limp-home mode unhappy on more than one occasion.

    I’m sure those lines of code made sense at the time to the Jaguar programmer… I don’t see the point.

    Lastly, Bob’s “XJ/XK” is nothing more than a simple XK120 as far as the state of Georgia is concerned… built long before any sort of emissions concerns. There’s no yearly state inspection here and no body tasked with regulating or preventing a private body from spending their money as he did. Even if he had been forced to register the car as the late model, it’s bone stock, and Jag on Jag… the hood ornament alone is likely enough to keep the state emissions inspector from asking too many questions. Even if he gets pulled over, the policeman isn’t likely look any closer either. I have no idea of how he has the thing insured… I imagine he’s paying a steep premium for a collector car/declared value type policy.

    I can only speak to my own means, but that car is far beyond them on many levels. Purely financially first and foremost, as would be the proposed LS/Range Rover. Person philosophy being the distant second reason for not doing so. I grew up in luxury car dealerships with a fairly successful car salesman for a father means I’m loathe to even walk into ANY car dealership and surely would never do so with the intention of a showroom new car. Let someone else take that hit. My means are better than many I grew up with, who now stretch theirs to lease cars they can’t afford to own, because they work in offices where most of the vehicles I’ve had in my life wouldn’t be welcome. They also have money budgeted monthly for Brooks Brothers and can’t wear a shirt with a stain on it their place of work. I make more than most of them and live far cheaper. When I have a boss, I would get a funny look wearing clothing they can’t wear to work anymore. There will never be any company wide email sent about my vehicle meeting company requirements for sales calls or any foolishness near to it. I don’t live in fear of buying tires or a minor repair, because I CAN and DO fix the cars I drive… except my 03’ BMW 525… thankfully it’s my BEATER, dead-reliable, doesn’t even leak oil yet and I’m in it for the least amount, emotionally and financially. There’s a good chance the front bumper isn’t gonna hang on much longer, but I sleep peacefully knowing if it doesn’t I won’t have to park around the block in fear of some HR email shaming reprisal.

    Anyhow, as much as I’ve enjoyed this one, it’s late enough I can shut the shop doors and and leave the mediocre shop office ac for the vastly superior home air conditioning. Thankfully I got the jobs that had to get done today finished before the real heat came and this post has helped me procrastinate in climate control.


    You all have a great weekend, I’ll accept a ride in the LS-Range whenever/if ever it gets done!



    Jeremy


    P.S. ironically I met a guy yesterday with possibly an even rarer bird than an LS-powered Range Rover… He had the biggest pair of B.F. Goodrich MUD TERRAINS he could stuff in the wheel wells of a 2013 Range Rover.

    My money is on finding another LS/Rover before you run across someone so foolish as the mudder-rover.

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    This HAS to be thermite talking to himself... no other explination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jermfab View Post
    I’m not saying can’t or shouldn’t be done. I know there’s Jeep guys that have figured out how to run the GM engine management computer piggybacked to the Chrysler body control computer. The purpose is to trick the state smog computer into not believing the inspectors lying eyes, should he pop the hood. No sir, that is NOT an 8-cylinder engine manufactured by a Jeep competitor. Thats a a six-cylinder with no check engine light burning, running happily and within spec.
    No. No. And NO!

    What you must do to be "legal" is:

    - Have used a NEWER motor with TIGHTER specs than OEM, not lesser.

    - HAVE the 100% EM system that matches said REPLACEMENT motor.

    IOW - you have effected a provable - even if MODEST - improvement, NO permissable regression.

    At test time? The inspection station klewed up the computer to run the test of the 1984 Jeep chassis.. against the standards for the 1991 GMC van V6 the motor and brain box had been born in.

    My "improvements" - to deal with TBI adapted from a Corvette V8 and VERY high-flow tube headers and cat converter, etc. plus shortened intake path, were what was "invisible". Or more accurately "don't care" .. but only as long as it passed ALL parts of the combined cycles of all the parts of the automated test. By external sensors.

    Reading "codes" out of the OBDC data port is not good enough.

    Too easy to fake with an isolated box simply telling pre-stored lies.

    "LS" powered Rovers were already a done-deal, ages ago.

    It is only the install into later model TIGHTER SPEC emissions that caught my eye.

    My simpler plan is to alter my choice of motor lube. Then take my chances as to the rate of degradation on the already known-worn system giving me "enough" useful miles out of it.

    Which is not a lot.

    COVID clamped down?

    I ran the Jaguar fewer than 300 miles in the 12 months between annual inspections, and the Chrysler T&C fewer than 3,000 miles, same period.

    As said, where you stand on an issue.... determines what options might be appropriate.

    Low dependency on a motor vehicle is a major game-changer as to how much one can play. Or just live-with a risk.

    If I have a "critical dependency" trip?

    I just rent what I need for that tasking.

    Those among us putting 50,000 miles and more - sometimes a LOT more - on a set of wheels have a whole different "world" to deal with than I have at this late stage in life.

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    Default 6.0L powerstroke possible replacement

    I completely agree on not depending on AN automobile. I’m prefer to maintain an armada of disposable vehicles. Vehicles bought cheap enough that pulling the plates, taking anything of value and walking away is always a viable option. Hop a ride share to wherever the closest of my other vehicles as parked and don’t look back. Always bought and paid for, insured at the barest minimum, not a penny paid to any financier on any of them.

    My reality is that I’ve only just HEARD of the “Jones’s”… never met em, don’t particularly care to, based on their reputation… quite comfortable believing I have already long passed them and therefore would need to backtrack in order to keep up with them.
    Any emotional attachment I allow myself to develop is always fleeting and in direct relation to the time and hassle of doing more than walking away. I’m of the P.T. Barnum camp, plenty of fools out there willing to make my problem their own and help me recoup my losses for the pleasure.

    The best money is that money that makes more, good money remains unspent as long as possible… and turns bad quickly chasing a major issue on a disposable car. Especially when steel is high enough the scrap value is enough to take notice of.

    I’d rather have a good running automobile than straight bodywork or good paint. I’ve owned a veritable fleet of 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s BMW’s and Mercedes, the paint I see from my vantage is ALWAYS dead on those cars. Just IS. Gospel FACT by the time these cars come to me. Even the most recent, the current 03’ five series didn’t have paint when I bought it. The paint may have scared away other buyers, as the previous owner was happy to negotiate by the time I got there. I was far happier to see clean pavement underneath the car in the pictures he listed than spend time thinking about the paintwork on the horizontal surfaces.

    The absolutely WONDERFUL in-line sixes the Germans used to make always ran hot enough to ruin the hood paint. Worse even when they added the second camshaft and the engines got even closer to the hood. I’m sure that flat expanse of hood necessitated by the engine layout didn’t help matters.

    The weakest V8 is always more exciting than all but the hottest in-line six, but the V8 architecture is for those people still trying to catch the Jones’s, especially in a passenger car. Trucks have different rules. No matter what, the German sixes just start and run! The Mercedes seem to do a better job keeping oil INSIDE the crank case, but as long as there’s some oil there those motors just keep doing what they were supposed to do, albeit with less excitement than the comparable V8 model.

    While I’d rather not drive a car that looks like was JUST in a major crash as they tend to draw unnecessary attention, I’d still rather have a paid for and good running car with a mismatched, dented or primered panel than assume a payment. Thats another concern for those unfortunate folk still chasing those Jones’s.

    The attachment won’t be emotional, but may wind up built on sheer petulance… I “obtained” a 300SD and 280D Mercedes the weekend before last… either the fourth and fifth or fifth and sixth turbo diesel Mercedes I’ve owned. They were “left” to a friend by his near-estranged and recently deceased father. He’s always joked that his dad had a problem… I surely didn’t expect to learn, firsthand, of his dads problem. I don’t think my friend fully understood the breadth of his dads issues either

    There were fifteen late 70’s/early 80’s Mercedes turbo diesels in his dads backyard. So far not a title has appeared for any of them. Five went immediately to another guy I know who owns his own rollback as payment for him moving the rest out of the backyard. He moved the two I laid claim to to my shop. Those two are my payment for helping my buddy. I was able to get one of the two running with the F250 battery. It smoked… A LOT, but smoothed out fairly quickly and isn’t noticeably louder than any of my previous ones.
    The odometer on the beige one I got started shows 415k, I haven’t even attempted to start the burgundy(possibly brown) one. I’ve never met a FAST Mercedes turbo diesel… the smaller body may be marginally more nimble, but prefer the big body cars. The time taken getting to 75-80 is measured in epochs, but once there they hold it as long as the fuel lasts.

    I did promise my friend some money IF he can produce the titles, but minus title, the cars themselves are payment for the honest work I helped him with. We cleared his dads backyard, of cars at least, and the job remaining to him is infinitely easier. I’m sure he would have preferred any check with five figures; even after prolonged probate proceedings, to the work he has ahead of him, but he’ll probably wind up working a little bit and netting six figures. His dad wasn’t well, I didn’t even look inside the house, but the stairs and porches were mostly clear, so maybe it isn’t that bad… in any case cars and house were willed to my bud, bought and paid for, most likely an account or two capable of covering the taxes on the house will be made available to friend before taxes are due.

    Back to the turbo diesels, I’ve had a number of these cars and the love part of the equation definitely overshadows the hate part. I sold all but one of the ones I’ve had in the past. I gave the last away because it was the best and easiest possible decision at the time I made it. I didn’t allow myself the time to worry about emotions when I had to make the moves.

    Here’s where the petulance comes in:

    I watched the odometer roll over on at least two of my previous turbo diesels, but the odometer on all of them stopped working before they rolled over again to 400k. The planned obsolescence concept must not have made the proper translation to German… the engine is supposed to stop working… or the axle breaks in half… something that DISABLES the vehicle. A non-functioning odometer isn’t enough to take a running car off the road.

    Like I said, the odometer on the beige 300SD, my preferred of the chassis’ has already made it farther than I’ve ever seen before. And I’m surely petulant enough to try and roll it past 500k… if the odometer still works. Getting a replacement title is never easy, but it’s just time and some more of that petulance I have in reserve.

    Even I probably don’t have the pity lance reserves to attempt another half million miles, IF the odometer still works and stays doing so for the remaining miles, but I’ve heard tell that Mercedes likes to buy back their million mile cars. Further research required before final decision can be made, seeing 500k feels a worthy enough goal at the moment.

    I do miss my high school and college days when dad was still at the Mercedes dealership. He spent his time there as one of their more effective, Star-certified, new car salesmen, but he had a good relationship with both the service and used car managers. His new car sales manager was probably unaware, but when a customer came in wanting a new car and also wanting to trade a vehicle with too many miles for the used car department he’d let me get first option on some of them. A no hassle amount of cash for his customer, no additional load to the service department and more room on the used car lot for better, newer and more expensive cars.

    Most of those cars got sold for a profit, even a respectable profit on a couple occasions. I didn’t know enough then, but those cars made me more suspicious today of low-mileage cars than HIGH-mileage ones. The high-mileage ones get maintained, they get driven… low mileage cars are for suckers who fixate on things like the odometer setting and miss far more serious issues… You know, the ones who get stranded on the side of the freeway in rush hour traffic, when the lower radiator hose the car left the factory with finally rots away.

    I’ve only owned two Fords in my life and only one a diesel. I made a LOT of money when I sold the 3/4-ton with the 7.3L. Honestly, while the diesel was absolutely more efficient, I LIKE the big block gas 3/4-ton I currently have. It’s exciting! It’s also a straight-shift, also my preference… millennial theft deterrence. I MAY even be sad whenever it goes. It’s my only truck at the moment and with the truck market as it exists right now, I’ll probably hold onto it for a while.

    THERE!!! as close as I can get it back to the original topic.

    Everyone have a great weekend and


    Be safe



    Jeremy

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    Quote Originally Posted by jermfab View Post
    The absolutely WONDERFUL in-line sixes the Germans used to make
    That would be Herr Dr. Ing. August Horch, 1907 onward, last version seen in the Horch-Zwickau built Audi 920, 1938-1940, yazz..

    BMW sixes were a joke!

    The '71 1/2 3.0 BMW "Bavaria" didn't crack its head until about 80,000 miles. Barr's leaks carried that one until I could trade it for a Subaru @ 108,000 miles.

    The '89 UK-spec 2.5 L BMW had already cracked its OEM head, cracked two more, but both of those were the usual mass-produced weldups done for the global BMW head trade at a largish factory somewhere in the Nederlands.

    You LIKE a slant six BMW? Transplant a MOPAR slant six into it and weld the hood shut. The BMW coachwork will disintegrate - as usual - before that MOPAR even needs a 100,000 mile oil change.



    Otherwise, better to invest in their advehooring companies and let those whom the adverhoors have con'ed drive the world's most over-rated German automobile-shaped-object.

    You more durable modern inline sixes for gasoline, not Diesel, are under the floor of the cabs of Japanese light and medium goods vehicles.

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    Technically a bulletproofed 6.0 includes oringed heads and egr cooler delete, otherwise the headgasket will just push out again even with studs and the cooler will fail. If you aren't running tuning there's a bit less of a chance. Higher egts are a big contribution to the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Technically a bulletproofed 6.0 includes oringed heads and egr cooler delete, otherwise the headgasket will just push out again even with studs and the cooler will fail. If you aren't running tuning there's a bit less of a chance. Higher egts are a big contribution to the issue.
    And who defined that? Your local diesel shop or some Youtube expert?

    O-rings don't belong in a work truck. If it's a toy go for it. If it needs to be reliable and repairable O-ringed heads are a very stupid investment.

    The absolute stupidest approach is to O-ring the heads while still running the stock profile camshaft. If you do that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what's at work here.

    And like was mentioned before several times, the surface finishes of the block and head deck surfaces are critical. The surface finishes they are made with do not work. They will fail even with studs. You have to pull the engine block out, surface the deck correctly. Correct surface finish does more for reliability than O-rings ever could.

    Then there's the valvetrain stuff. Just in this thread there are several first hand accounts of 6.0 lifter failures from the plastic guides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    And who defined that? Your local diesel shop or some Youtube expert?

    O-rings don't belong in a work truck. If it's a toy go for it. If it needs to be reliable and repairable O-ringed heads are a very stupid investment.

    The absolute stupidest approach is to O-ring the heads while still running the stock profile camshaft. If you do that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what's at work here.

    And like was mentioned before several times, the surface finishes of the block and head deck surfaces are critical. The surface finishes they are made with do not work. They will fail even with studs. You have to pull the engine block out, surface the deck correctly. Correct surface finish does more for reliability than O-rings ever could.

    Then there's the valvetrain stuff. Just in this thread there are several first hand accounts of 6.0 lifter failures from the plastic guides.
    It's been proven time and again oringed heads are better at sealing compression be it Ford Chevy or cummins.

    The issue with the pushrods on the 6.0 is they are too long. All replacements from Ford are the shorter 6.4 rods. The lifters didn't change between the 7.3, 6.0, and 6.4. It wasn't until the 6.7 that the lifter was redesigned. It's one of the few if only parts that interchange between the powerstrokes.


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