Advice on type of shop power

I live off-grid. To connect to the grid would be in excess of $15k for materials alone. My wife and I like being untied from the grid. We have solar, batteries, generators and hopefully soon...wind power. I am currently building a house and some outbuildings before building a permanent work structure in a couple years. Once our house and more important living and working structures are built, I want to build our workshop(s)...metal, wood and mechanical/fabricating shops. Currently, I work in a couple pole barns or in the open air. While I am grateful to have a roof to work under, they are small, low overhead, relatively open, not insulated and not heated.

I operate one of several generators depending on the equipment or tool's power requirement. I operate generators as small as 1800 watt single phase 110V inverter up to a 6.5kW 1 & 3 phase diesel generator. If I stay with powering the workshop with a generator and supply electricity to the individual pieces of equipment, I would prefer to keep generator size smaller to help keep fuel requirements as low as possible. My current main generator is a MEP-802A that can supply 1 & 3 phase power @ 110V, 220V & 208Vand is "rated" for 5kw but is well known to supply over 6.5kw and suggested it would be forgiving at 13kw spikes (I do not care to try this).

I do not believe more than one piece of large equipment will be operated at any one time. The largest motor I currently have on a piece of equipment is a 3 phase 3 HP. One on a wood thickness planer and one on a Johansson radial drill press which, until I can replace it I will use it for light milling. I may add more powerful machinery in the future but highly unlikely. I obtain older and cheaper retired industrial equipment for my own use. Many times, the motors do not work, need rebuilding or are out of the electrical power range that I can supply. Some machinery is 440 3 phase.

To move away from the electricity shortcomings, I may go the way of the old. Locally, there are Amish I know who have shops with line shafts to power their equipment which allows for a single power plant. A diesel engine, in their cases. I am not looking to create a nostalgic shop for others to appreciate. I am looking to make a shop for me to use to make items for myself and my family. I don't care what it looks like, but want to make sure it is functional, reliable and reasonably safe (I have no children or grandchildren to be concerned with romping through). The shop is to have two sections for machinery. One for wood and one for metal. Both will be on the same level (ground) and most likely, back to back with a single 3 phase copper main or a line shaft for each shop. We get frigid temperatures here so if I want only to heat one shop I can without concern for having belt openings for each tool penetrating the joining wall.

Starting current is what concerns me if I continue to operate with electricity as a power source for the tools. I may be unrealistic, if I were to go with electric lines, I do have a 3 phase 7.5 HP 1725 rpm motor I can spin up with a flywheel to use as a electric power buffer to start larger motors that my generator would not safely handle on its own. If I were to decide on line shafts for the work shops, I can go two ways. 1) Operate a diesel engine to turn the main line shaft then connect a generator head to the main line shaft to operate the lighting and smaller hand power tooling. 2) Operate a generator for all electrical power needs and turn the main line shaft with electric motor(s). I have (3) 2HP 3 phase 840 RPM motors to turn each on as needed or a single 7.5 HP 3 phase 1725 rpm motor to turn a main line shaft which secondary shafts (one for each shop) for the larger mechanical machinery.

I hope this makes sense as I am trying to get this post to you all while I am between tasks at home. If I can get your help and experience, maybe I can make a more efficient and productive shop than I could on my own.

Does anyone have experience with line shafts? If so, how are they powered? What do you like? What do you dislike? What would you change?

Does anyone operate with generators? Redundant, but if so, how are they powered? What do you like? What do you dislike? What would you change?

Space for me isn't an issue as I have plenty of land to build any size building that I require. Even so, though, being smaller will help with heating, but being too compact is troublesome for having elbow room to move materials. I do have electric pallet jacks to be able to maneuver and have I-beams to build gantries to move heavy items.

Pay the $15k and get on with life.

Breakers, fuses, and GFI's make electricity much safer than ANY Amish workaround.

And I have seen several.

Post in the Antique Machinery section and ask who is running a shop with line-shaft driven equipment. Have you found a source for shafting, hangers, idler pulleys, clutches, etc., etc.? Two small 3 phase generator that you could sync might be a better direction. Would micro-hydro be a possibility on your property?

Poles and wires that you have to maintain yourself is not set and forget....My neighbour at the scrapyard is on a long easment with something like 15 poles to his front gate .....tree fell down (not mine ,fortunately) and snapped off five poles in a row .....he spent $15 k just having the line reinstated ....admittedly his poles were old ,but at $1500 each pole just for standing a new pole,then the wires need a qualified crew with EPV s etc.

digger doug said:

Pay the $15k and get on with life.

Breakers, fuses, and GFI's make electricity much safer than ANY Amish workaround.

And I have seen several.

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I appreciate your input. Thank you, but I still think we are staying off-grid. It is nice to not know when the power has gone out for everyone around us. Plus, we learn to be more resourceful and more conservative in what resources we use. That $15k will allow us to build our home a year earlier. We are not taking out loans for our property. We have much more time for each other, friends and family rather than an employer and coworkers.

Something you may not know.....never run a diesel engine lightly loaded for long periods ,the cylinder bores will glaze ,and it may not restart,and will certainly burn lots of engine oil(white exhaust smoke)

Would you rather spend your life building the shop or would you like to make stuff in the shop?

I'd say it's a heck of a lot easier to make $15,000 than build a functional lineshaft shop.

I've bought a lot of things for cash because I don't like debt either. $15k for power seems like a normal cost you expect when you develop a property. A real diesel generator is easily going to cost you that.

I knew a guy real well, pretty good friends really. He wanted to do everything himself saved money better than anybody. He died about 8 years ago from lung cancer. He found out Thanksgiving and was in the dirt on MLK day. He spent about 40 years building his shop and improving his 12 acres. He never got any of it done. When he died he had a 1/2 mil in the bank, a big safe full of cash, a $100k gun collection and his property was worth 1.2 mil. Just the dirt. His kid pissed everything he left behind away in a few years with nothing to show for it.

Build a lineshaft if you want, but don't think the time it takes you to get that pretty useless end result is going to be well spent.

Three Outback or similar off grid inverters can be stacked to generate 3 phase power from 24 or 48 volt DC battery bank. Charge that battery bank with solar or wind. Should be no problem to run the equipment you have. I had a customer that ran his (small) CNC plasma cutting business off of three phase power from the Outback inverters.

reggie_obe said:

Post in the Antique Machinery section and ask who is running a shop with line-shaft driven equipment. Have you found a source for shafting, hangers, idler pulleys, clutches, etc., etc.? Two small 3 phase generator that you could sync might be a better direction. Would micro-hydro be a possibility on your property?

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Thank you, I will have to post in Antique Machinery section.

A couple miles down the road is a scrap yard that often brings in many different types of steel and equipment that can be used for line shafting and pulleys. They also, purchase large metal lots at business liquidations. I pay by the pound for material. Also, as Amish leave the area, they auction their tools and equipment.

You are correct, synchronizing 2 smaller generators to start bigger machinery could work. Once started, turn off the second generator to conserve fuel. I will have to check if that can be done with the MEP-802A.

Also, I forgot, a small low rpm single cylinder diesel generator can use as little as 0.11 gallon/kw/hr. Use this generator to recharge batteries when the wind or sun isn't with us and use a 3 phase DC/AC inverter to operate the equipment.

A single copper 3 phase trunk run with taps to each machine is cheaper than all the shafting and pulleys. Especially if I can find the 50' of copper (and smaller segments for each of the machines) at the scrap yard. Used breakers and boxes are readily available as well.
Looking more like I can use this type of setup. Thank you for reminding me.

I think that it would be simpler and quicker and honestly cheaper to run a generator to run electric motors on the equipment. Lineshaft equipment is cool, but takes time and money while using it and you still have to maintain and pay for a power source. Wiring is pretty much a one time expense both in time and money. Lineshafts take maintenance and alot more time to install. You are also stuck with a layout once you get it going. Wires are alot easier to change routing.

I'd think the cheapest way to do it would be to use a single phase generator to run a rpc.

john.k said:

Poles and wires that you have to maintain yourself is not set and forget....My neighbour at the scrapyard is on a long easment with something like 15 poles to his front gate .....tree fell down (not mine ,fortunately) and snapped off five poles in a row .....he spent $15 k just having the line reinstated ....admittedly his poles were old ,but at $1500 each pole just for standing a new pole,then the wires need a qualified crew with EPV s etc.

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You are correct. Poles I add will have to be maintained by me. The route they would have to take is through 1000' of maple, beech and pine. That is just to get to the area where we have structures. There are trees all over, even there. Usually, at least three times per year I have to clean up branches or whole trees that wind, ice or snow take down. so, three times per year there is a chance that I will lose power because of my own trees. I would need to pay to have that power restored. I will not "clean up" my property just to get mains power. I could, though, bury the line as I have the equipment. I believe the wire for buried power is much more expensive.

Also, if I have grid power, I will be subject to heavier scrutiny from our local codes. We are rural and if we are not connected to the grid, things are much more lax on our property. Not that we are negligent in our safety measures. Still, I would rather take the money spent to get power to the structures to purchase equipment to produce our own power or in our instance...build our house a year sooner.

I like being responsible for our own power and if I watch for the right buy, I can save a ton of money on solar and other equipment that will just continue to save us money and keep us independent in the future.

john.k said:

Something you may not know.....never run a diesel engine lightly loaded for long periods ,the cylinder bores will glaze ,and it may not restart,and will certainly burn lots of engine oil(white exhaust smoke)

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I certainly know this and I appreciate being reminded. Thank you.

Garwood said:

Would you rather spend your life building the shop or would you like to make stuff in the shop?

I'd say it's a heck of a lot easier to make $15,000 than build a functional lineshaft shop.

I've bought a lot of things for cash because I don't like debt either. $15k for power seems like a normal cost you expect when you develop a property. A real diesel generator is easily going to cost you that.

I knew a guy real well, pretty good friends really. He wanted to do everything himself saved money better than anybody. He died about 8 years ago from lung cancer. He found out Thanksgiving and was in the dirt on MLK day. He spent about 40 years building his shop and improving his 12 acres. He never got any of it done. When he died he had a 1/2 mil in the bank, a big safe full of cash, a $100k gun collection and his property was worth 1.2 mil. Just the dirt. His kid pissed everything he left behind away in a few years with nothing to show for it.

Build a lineshaft if you want, but don't think the time it takes you to get that pretty useless end result is going to be well spent.

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I spend my life doing what I enjoy doing. That's it. I don't do this with the expectation to make money or do things for others. Our property is for me and my wife to enjoy together for the rest of our lives. I punch no clock and I don't owe anything to anybody. I have what I need and am patient for that I want.

As far as a line shaft, I find it very interesting. Belts and pulleys working together. Automatic oiling and even the rings over the shafts to keep them clean. As intriguing as they are, they are not required. I want what is going to fit our life. Line shaft, generator power only or as I have been reminded...DC to AC power from renewables, even 3 phase.

Thank you!

A friend brought me a couple of 5hp dc motors from treadmills, perhaps you could spend a bit of time thinking about dc since you are surrounded with it and avoid the loss of inverters. If you are stuck on ac perhaps some creative wiring would allow to use a single VFD to run multiple machines as long as you run only one at a time, Just my random thoughts.

kb0thn said:

Three Outback or similar off grid inverters can be stacked to generate 3 phase power from 24 or 48 volt DC battery bank. Charge that battery bank with solar or wind. Should be no problem to run the equipment you have. I had a customer that ran his (small) CNC plasma cutting business off of three phase power from the Outback inverters.

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I concur! We do not find it difficult to live with solar and hopefully soon...wind. All with automatic generator backup. I have forgotten that DC to 3 phase AC is easily possible. I checked into sourcing a 20kw 3 phase UPS at one time, but was discouraged because I was told it was not an efficient method of converting DC to 3 phase power for a shop. That was with old technology. I am sure new equipment is much more efficient. I will have to check into stacking inverters again.

Thank you

macgyver said:

I think that it would be simpler and quicker and honestly cheaper to run a generator to run electric motors on the equipment. Lineshaft equipment is cool, but takes time and money while using it and you still have to maintain and pay for a power source. Wiring is pretty much a one time expense both in time and money. Lineshafts take maintenance and alot more time to install. You are also stuck with a layout once you get it going. Wires are alot easier to change routing.

I'd think the cheapest way to do it would be to use a single phase generator to run a rpc.

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I do think that line shafting is not for us. Still, I think it's cool, in a nostalgic way. Like steamships. More and more, it looks like I am leaning toward DC into stacked DC to AC inverters to give us 3 phase power backup up by solar, wind and automatic generator. I wish we had river access or a year 'round stream to power a water turbine. But I know we can manage with sun and wind backed up by a generator.

Thank you for your suggestion

kustomizer said:

A friend brought me a couple of 5hp dc motors from treadmills, perhaps you could spend a bit of time thinking about dc since you are surrounded with it and avoid the loss of inverters. If you are stuck on ac perhaps some creative wiring would allow to use a single VFD to run multiple machines as long as you run only one at a time, Just my random thoughts.

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Honestly I thought about that very thing when I first started with operating from batteries. I have a couple really large DC motors. The kind that propel small cars to highway speeds. They each weigh about 125 lb. I even have the controllers for them. Then I started thinking of all of the copper I would need to purchase. If the machinery were close to the batteries it wouldn't be much of an issue, but I have too much equipment now and will be getting more in the future. The size of the cabling is prohibitive for lower voltage motors.

If I am not mistaken, treadmill motors are 90V DC. This would decrease the gauge of wire required and approach the size of 220V wire, but still, the size of the wire is cost prohibitive, unless I can find enough large salvage wire.

Focusing on being flexible by being able to operate 208V 3 phase, 220V and 110V single phase in the shops from the same DC to AC inverters may be the way for us to go. I haven't checked into it further yet, but I think three inverters 120 degrees apart would give us 208/220V 3 phase and two inverters 180 degrees apart would give us 220V and 110V. All from the same equipment and we will not need special motors for machinery and supporting equipment like controllers operating at odd voltages and currents.

Thank you for your input

aefriot said:

Honestly I thought about that very thing when I first started with operating from batteries. I have a couple really large DC motors. The kind that propel small cars to highway speeds. They each weigh about 125 lb. I even have the controllers for them. Then I started thinking of all of the copper I would need to purchase. If the machinery were close to the batteries it wouldn't be much of an issue, but I have too much equipment now and will be getting more in the future. The size of the cabling is prohibitive for lower voltage motors.

If I am not mistaken, treadmill motors are 90V DC. This would decrease the gauge of wire required and approach the size of 220V wire, but still, the size of the wire is cost prohibitive, unless I can find enough large salvage wire.

Focusing on being flexible by being able to operate 208V 3 phase, 220V and 110V single phase in the shops from the same DC to AC inverters may be the way for us to go. I haven't checked into it further yet, but I think three inverters 120 degrees apart would give us 208/220V 3 phase and two inverters 180 degrees apart would give us 220V and 110V. All from the same equipment and we will not need special motors for machinery and supporting equipment like controllers operating at odd voltages and currents.

Thank you for your input

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The shop we just left in California was powered using 5 sunny boy 6k inverters making 30kw, 3 phase, 240v power enough to keep 9 CNC machines and a bunch of support machinery, though we were grid tied, it does work, we always made more power than we used.
Good luck and don't forget to keep us posted, I have no plans to go off grid but would still be interested as will some of the others here.

There is no doubt you can cobble together a usable off grid system. However if at some point you need to sell you are at a huge disadvantage compared to having on grid power. It sounds great to say you will be there the rest of your life but that is unknowable. If one or both of you at some point needs nursing home care there may be many of your last years where you are not there and selling is the best option. Or if one of you become disabled or require ac powered lifesaving equipment, power at the flip of a switch can make the difference between moving and staying in your dream property. That $15,000 is an insurance policy to have power with no work or labor when you can't get around like you do now and if necessary an easily saleable property.

kustomizer said:

The shop we just left in California was powered using 5 sunny boy 6k inverters making 30kw, 3 phase, 240v power enough to keep 9 CNC machines and a bunch of support machinery, though we were grid tied, it does work, we always made more power than we used.
Good luck and don't forget to keep us posted, I have no plans to go off grid but would still be interested as will some of the others here.

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Here in northern NY, we don't have the amount of sun California can provide, but we do have some wind when the sun does not shine. We use power when we have it. If we don't have power and can wait, we do. If we cannot wait, we have generators. I prefer to not use fossil fuels to create electricity. There is always something to do here on the farm to keep me busy until the sun or, in the future, wind helps us out by charging our batteries.

I would like to be able to come back from time to time to give updates and perhaps photos and schematics.