Almost out of my pre-ban Moly-Dee, How does my heart go on? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderedge View Post
    Maybe find a MSDS sheet of the old stuff and make your own? Possibly by mixing other tapping fluids which have key components together or adding certain things to one base fluid like the black Ridgid stuff.

    Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk
    I mixed up a brew with Ridgid threading oil and mixed in open gear lube that comes in aerosol cans, basically a high pressure lubricant. Works pretty darn good. I've also used the Black Moly grease that you can get at any parts store.
    The hastle with this is getting it mixed and well blended.
    Maybe I can talk my wife into getting a new blender.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conant View Post
    I mixed up a brew with Ridgid threading oil and mixed in open gear lube that comes in aerosol cans, basically a high pressure lubricant. Works pretty darn good. I've also used the Black Moly grease that you can get at any parts store.
    The hastle with this is getting it mixed and well blended.
    Maybe I can talk my wife into getting a new blender.
    You'd have to keep the moly particles in suspension, add motor oil for that!

    I have some CRC extreme pressure engine assembly lube I keep around for general purpose lubrication of screws, sliding parts, etc. Very heavy oil, almost a grease. I'll have to try it as a cutting paste. Hmm.

    Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk

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    Are you dabbing it or flooding it? I'd say any straight, thick, slimy cutting oil will do the job if you have at least a small, clean, constant stream to the tool. If you want a name, I know Fuchs makes a good one I've never had a problem with(I'll have to ask the screw shop the exact name of it, but it's golden brown, smells good, and is very sweet), even the 3" several start taps go smooth in steel.
    If you're just acid brushing, idk, good luck on a replacement.

  5. #24
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    So what is it about moly-dee that is alleged bad for you? Heavy metal?

  6. #25
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    Since we are located in the wonderful state of California just about every lube that worked has been banned.
    This state is so messed up before long a plain old beer will probably require a formula change and a MSDS.
    Anyway we have found that a product called Oatey Dark thread cutting oil works pretty good.
    I buy by the case at Home depot, works so well I can't understand that we can still purchase it here.

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    So what is it about moly-dee that is alleged bad for you? Heavy metal?
    Dunno. I hadn't seen the details of the 'ban' nor have an SDS or MDS for the 'pre-ban' goop the OP cited.

    There is no shortage of sources for the CURRENT product, Castrol Moly-Dee AKA Variocut C.

    Tempest in an oil-bottle, maybe?

    Older things are always better, of course.

    Or at least we had all best stick to that line if we don't want our wives to trade us for TWO men, each HALF our age!


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    I have never used moly dee either but I sure miss my old Tap Magic original formula with tri chlor.

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  11. #28
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    Castrol Ilocut range is pretty comprehensive, I used the sulphurised Ilocut 154 a fair bit. A local company drilling 1" diameter holes in 1" thick 316, tripled their core drill life with one of the chlorinated and sulphurised Ilocut products.

    Ilocut 154-156 : Sulphurised neat cutting oil
    Ilocut 130: Sulphurised and chlorinated EP additives, free flowing oil
    Ilocut 170: Chlorinated neat cutting oil
    Ilocut 282: Chlorinated and sulphurised neat cutting oil

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    So what is it about moly-dee that is alleged bad for you? Heavy metal?
    A lot of the older ones were chlorinated and sulphurised and when used in cutting operations some of the material vapourised and people breathed it in. No doubt it was a carcinogenic vapour.

    People say it never hurt me. But funny thing is, you do not hear the dead people who caught cancer from it saying it never hurt them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    A lot of the older ones were chlorinated and sulphurised and when used in cutting operations some of the material vapourised and people breathed it in. No doubt it was a carcinogenic vapour.

    People say it never hurt me. But funny thing is, you do not hear the dead people who caught cancer from it saying it never hurt them.

    There are studies of the health risks of cutting oils, with a low but statistically real risk of skin and liver cancers from skin absorption. One document that I didn't save a copy of mentioned that the switch from acid refined mineral oils to the more modern solvent refined mineral oils cut the incidence of various cancers in factories so there's other factors involved. Chlorinated cutting oils do have some health issues and are persistent in the environment and probably bioaccumulative in body fat.

    Dry cleaners use tetrachloroethylene : C2-2CL2 as a dry cleaning solvent all the time and it's only labelled as "Probably Carcinogenic". Environmentally it's bad because it's heavier than water : if it's spilled on ground it will sink into the water table and will persist for a long time. It does break down in sunlight, so in contaminated areas water is pumped out of wells along with the solvents and sprayed into the air to break down in sunlight. Chlorinated dry cleaning solvent exposure risks are estimated to be in the low tens of cases per million people exposed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    I have never used moly dee either but I sure miss my old Tap Magic original formula with tri chlor.
    I managed to pick up a case of the pint cans of the stuff right after the tri chlor manufacturing ban. I still break out the can for the hard tapping jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    There are studies of the health risks of cutting oils, with a low but statistically real risk of skin and liver cancers from skin absorption.
    I always thought the issue was more to do with vapours created from the heat in the cutting process.

    That is why the excellent Trefolex says for hand tool use only.

  19. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    I always thought the issue was more to do with vapours created from the heat in the cutting process.

    That is why the excellent Trefolex says for hand tool use only.
    It's a relative risk: drinking alcohol is a class 1 cancer risk. I use sulphurised cutting oil all the time on the lathe but I do have a fan in the workshop blowing the oil smoke away and bringing in fresh air, mainly because the workshop is a sauna in summer.

    I'm not a big fan of the Trefolex in a jar after running some experiments, it's just sulphur powder in lard with some mineral and vegetable oil: if you look closely you can see small lumps of sulphur. We ran some experiments with a whole range of products lying around by measuring the force required to tap identical 3/4" threads in mild steel plate with a spring balance hooked onto the end of the tap handle: Trefolex (and a lot of other products) gave a similar force to tapping a hole dry and Rocol fluid gave the greatest reduction in force. One onlooker who is a an electrician/airconditioner installer threw his jar of Trefolex in the bin after witnessing the tests and went out and bought a bottle of Rocol.

    Edit; I see Trefolex contains up to 30% mineral Talc which has been linked to Talcosis, a fibrosis type lung disease as well as being a group 2 carcinogen (just like tetrachloroethylene). Admittedly the talc related cancers are from the use of the powdered form which seems to cause inflammation.

  20. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    Rocol fluid gave the greatest reduction in force.
    Is that the jet black rocol fluid that smells like it was dredged up from the bottom of a ships bunker??


    It is interesting how cutting fluids work. Essentially I guess they are friction reducers. The idea being to get right to the very fracture point of the material and try to reduce friction between the cutting tool and workpiece. So you need an extreme low viscosity liquid or even a vapour to get right in there. Then it also needs to take some of the heat away that is generated from the friction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    Is that the jet black rocol fluid that smells like it was dredged up from the bottom of a ships bunker??


    It is interesting how cutting fluids work. Essentially I guess they are friction reducers. The idea being to get right to the very fracture point of the material and try to reduce friction between the cutting tool and workpiece. So you need an extreme low viscosity liquid or even a vapour to get right in there. Then it also needs to take some of the heat away that is generated from the friction.
    The sulphur compounds seem to react with the raw metal surface to form metal sulphides which are a dry extreme pressure lubricant similar to molybdenum disulphide or tungsten disulphide. In drilling it just has to contact the raw drilled metal before the second drill cutting edge passes by, so in theory if only the first half turn of the drill bit is unlubricated. I think it just protects the cutting tool from having the swarf friction weld to the surface, certainly drilled holes in aluminium look almost reamed in appearance compared to the chewed appearance when drilled dry.

    The Rocol formula itself seems to have changed over time, the old stuff would cause flash rusting, the newer stuff is a light coloured liquid that seems to perform differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    I have never used moly dee either but I sure miss my old Tap Magic original formula with tri chlor.
    Ahhh. That stuff was fricking AMAZING!

    I still remember that smell. And how it was cold to the touch.
    The good ole days.

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  24. #37
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    [QUOTE=RC99;2927980]Is that the jet black rocol fluid that smells like it was dredged up from the bottom of a ships bunker??


    I have some Rocol, Ultracut its called. Ive Never been in a ships bunker, but it must be the same cause its not the nicest smelling black stuff! Certainly works well tho !!!

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    Since others are chiming in with their special formulas:

    CRC Cutting Oil 14050: 40%
    Good ol' water: 40%
    20% TapMagic

    In a sports drink bottle, shake it up until it looks like soluble oil. Pour into your favorite acid brush tuna can.

    Works for me: drilling, tapping, lathe work, on the horizontal bandsaw. Never tried it with ceramic abrasives, but I try to run those dry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    I'm not a big fan of the Trefolex in a jar after running some experiments, it's just sulphur powder in lard with some mineral and vegetable oil: if you look closely you can see small lumps of sulphur.

    Edit; I see Trefolex contains up to 30% mineral Talc which has been linked to Talcosis, a fibrosis type lung disease as well as being a group 2 carcinogen (just like tetrachloroethylene). Admittedly the talc related cancers are from the use of the powdered form which seems to cause inflammation.
    Yup pretty much. There were guys up the road from us that used to make "it" as a side line to their insulation business... Nasty stuff alright and we used to use it every now and again till I saw the way they made it and the stink and health risks. I was not too disappointed when I threw out my 10L paint tin with it away.

  27. #40
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    Molly-Dee 16oz bottle on Amazon $12

    Molly-Dee 16oz bottle in the new MSC catalog that came UPS yesterday
    $46

    WTF??


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