anti-seize compounds - [1] what is mechanism of action? & [2] uses in shop?

Marty Feldman · Jul 12, 2020

Anti-seize compounds (Never-Seeze, e.g.) commonly contain graphite. Is it just graphite-based lubrication that is responsible for what these products do? One source says that the key to their easy-removal action is making the initial tightening require less torque to achieve the same lock-in. Another possibility is that it is the metals in these compounds, like steel, copper, et al., that provide gritty spacing between the male and female threads, lessening friction from metal to metal contact area when removing. Something more sophisticated having to do with chemistry?

I use this stuff effectively on things like automobile wheel lugs, but I am curious to know if it might be of use on small shop bolts. Two in particular, on mill tooling, that I always have major trouble backing out after use are the central retaining bolt for an annular cutter arbor and the hex-socket central retaining bolt for slitting saw blades. I should add that in both these cases the tooling is of midrange quality, not Harbor Freight but not highest quality either.

-Marty-

gbent · Jul 12, 2020

I think you will find the usage of anti-seize compounds is not recommended for wheel lug nuts or bolts. I do recommend it on the hub for snug fitting rims that are hub piloted.

Scottl · Jul 12, 2020

AFAIK the basic mechanism is inclusion of lubricating solids (graphite, molybdenum, copper, microscopic nickel spheres, etc.) in a grease-like binder. The different formulations are for different combinations of metals and different temperature and environmental conditions. The nickel spheres are commonly used to prevent galling with stainless-on-stainless and stainless-on-aluminum. Some teflon plumbing tape for use with stainless contains nickel spheres that perform an anti-seize function.

gbent said:
I think you will find the usage of anti-seize compounds is not recommended for wheel lug nuts or bolts. I do recommend it on the hub for snug fitting rims that are hub piloted.

I have used plain white grease (Lubriplate) on lug nuts for over forty years and never had a problem. A properly torqued nut will not loosen, regardless of lube on the threads.

pavt · Jul 12, 2020

gbent said:
I think you will find the usage of anti-seize compounds is not recommended for wheel lug nuts or bolts. I do recommend it on the hub for snug fitting rims that are hub piloted.

First I've ever heard of that -- why would that be? Never a problem in 4 decades of using it, either. I know I'm not the only one using it.

strokersix · Jul 12, 2020

pavt said:
First I've ever heard of that -- why would that be? Never a problem in 4 decades of using it, either. I know I'm not the only one using it.

Because thread and underhead seat friction are what keeps the lugs from backing off unintentionally. Also, reduced friction might mean over stretching the studs when torquing the nuts.

howieranger · Jul 12, 2020

Using anti seize on the threads is ok not on the seating surface. Its not that the nuts can loosen too easily its when the seating surface is anti seized the stud or lug bolt is stretched to much because the friction on the nut is reduced significantly leading to effectively much higher torque.

tdmidget · Jul 12, 2020

No. All lugs are supposed to be torqued dry. Lubing the threads can result in excess stretch and failure.

Gordon Heaton · Jul 12, 2020

tdmidget said:
No. All lugs are supposed to be torqued dry. Lubing the threads can result in excess stretch and failure.

And yet, every other torque spec I've seen indicates 'lightly lubricated' thread, therefore that must be factored into all but the wheel studs? Fishy.

Conrad Hoffman · Jul 12, 2020

AFAIK, industrial torque specs always assume lubrication, otherwise the results would be too scattered to be useful. Maybe not for automotive, but that means the amount of stretch in the field is all over the map, even if it comes out just right with nice clean nuts at the factory. I've used anti-seize on lug nuts forever and in this climate I'd never get 'em off if I didn't. I just had to pull a wheel that a shop put on dry only last year and nearly wrecked the threads. I had to inject penetrating oil and run the nut back and forth about 20 times, a bit at a time, to avoid damage.

Ziggy2 · Jul 12, 2020

pavt said:
First I've ever heard of that -- why would that be? Never a problem in 4 decades of using it, either. I know I'm not the only one using it.

I suspect the difference in advice is if you live in a warm climate without road salt and for the rest of us that live with the reality that if you do not put something on the threads, you have a very high probability of either twisting the stud off during removal or else you will need to use heat etc. to get the lug nuts off.

kustomizingkid · Jul 12, 2020

Soft metals are great high pressure lubricants... threads are high pressure. Its just soft metals suspended in grease and oil. I have some awesome aerosol spray can antisieze I love. Up here in the rust belt every brake job gets the hub cleaned to bare metal, antisieze sprayed before the rotor goes on.

I always clean the wheel face and hub bore if they are corroded too... thats the real reason wheels come loose imo, uneven clamping.

howieranger · Jul 12, 2020

tdmidget said:
No. All lugs are supposed to be torqued dry. Lubing the threads can result in excess stretch and failure.

I can say for certain that Porsches with light alloy lug nuts came from the factory with a copper colored anti seize from the factory at least into the early 2000's The majority of the friction is in the seating surface not the threads.

Joe Gwinn · Jul 12, 2020

Gordon Heaton said:
And yet, every other torque spec I've seen indicates 'lightly lubricated' thread, therefore that must be factored into all but the wheel studs? Fishy.

Yes. I've been lightly greasing lug nut studs forever, to prevent corrosion. Never a problem.

For lug nuts, there is more to it than just friction. The conical seat where the lug nuts rest is in a hemisphere dome formed in the wheel rim. When the lug nut is tightened, the dome compresses, acting as a spring maintaining contact force despite wiggling motion due to severe vibration from for instance a rough road. So long as there is sufficient clamping force, contact between rim, nut, et al is never lost, the nut will not unscrew itself.

Headbolts work in much the same way, but in this case the spring is from stretching the headbolts elastically.

The contact pressure levels are such that grease is completely pushed aside -- static friction rules.

gbent · Jul 12, 2020

Joe Gwinn said:
The conical seat where the lug nuts rest is in a hemisphere dome formed in the wheel rim. When the lug nut is tightened, the dome compresses, acting as a spring maintaining contact force despite wiggling motion due to severe vibration from for instance a rough road.

Only true with steel rims.

I have a GM product with aluminum wheels. It has large conical seats for the lug nuts. The factory torque specification is 140 ft*lb. If that conical seat was lubed the torque specification would over stress the wheel stud by a large amount. A 7/16-20 grade 8 nut unlubricated would be around 90 ft*lb.

pavt · Jul 12, 2020

Ziggy2 said:
I suspect the difference in advice is if you live in a warm climate without road salt and for the rest of us that live with the reality that if you do not put something on the threads, you have a very high probability of either twisting the stud off during removal or else you will need to use heat etc. to get the lug nuts off.

I think you've nailed it -- if you don't' put something on, then you *WILL* be throwing away the entire rim, tire, brake drum/disk, and hub. Because you won't get them apart without destroying them.

Up here, there are shops making a good coin by coating the underside of vehicles with cosmoline, but that doesn't do anything for hubs and studs.

deltap · Jul 12, 2020

Used lots of loctite never seize on 5/8 screws in cast iron flanges to prevent loctite 515 from adhereing to the threads.I remember the main ingredient in never seize was calcium. For threads in the rust belt in addition to grease or never seize loctite blue is effective at sealing threads against rust.

tdmidget · Jul 12, 2020

Here ya go:
3rd paragraph

[h=1]Wheel Tech: Wheel Lug Torquing[/h]
(Lea en español)
Proper wheel installation requires the wheel-attaching hardware (lug nuts or bolts) be tightened to the recommended torque specification for the vehicle make, model and year. Torque specifications are usually found in the vehicle's owner's manual.*
Proper torque requires using the correct tools, procedures and patterns. These will prevent over-tightening the hardware, stripping the fastener threads, and stretching the studs. It will also reduce the possibility of warping the brake drums, rotors or hubs.
Under- or over-tightening wheel-attaching hardware can be damaging and dangerous.
Torque specifications are for dry threads only. The fastener threads should be free of oil, dirt, grit, corrosion, etc. The hardware should turn freely without binding when tightened by hand. It is important NOT to lubricate hardware threads or seats. The friction at which torque is measured against should come from the hardware seats. Lubricating hardware threads and seats alters the friction generated at the lug seat which will result in inaccurate torque readings and/or over-torqueing of the hardware.

DMF_TomB · Jul 12, 2020

Marty Feldman said:
Anti-seize compounds (Never-Seeze, e.g.) commonly contain graphite. Is it just graphite-based lubrication that is responsible for what these products do? One source says that the key to their easy-removal action is making the initial tightening require less torque to achieve the same lock-in. Another possibility is that it is the metals in these compounds, like steel, copper, et al., that provide gritty spacing between the male and female threads, lessening friction from metal to metal contact area when removing. Something more sophisticated having to do with chemistry?

I use this stuff effectively on things like automobile wheel lugs, but I am curious to know if it might be of use on small shop bolts. Two in particular, on mill tooling, that I always have major trouble backing out after use are the central retaining bolt for an annular cutter arbor and the hex-socket central retaining bolt for slitting saw blades. I should add that in both these cases the tooling is of midrange quality, not Harbor Freight but not highest quality either.

-Marty-

.
anti seez can be graphite, nickel or copper are most common and oil. grease is oil and soap when oil dries the soap can act like a glue. soaking in mineral spirits or spraying it on will loosen grease up again slowly. i learned about dried grease acting like glue when a apprentice. was taught many parts thought to be a press fit were greased up and stuck together after decades and soaking with mineral spirits often the parts will fall off by gravity where hitting with a hammer wouldnt before.
.
anti seez even when dry forms a dry lubricant and slows corrosion the type that rust parts together stuck. i use anti seez in insert screws, retaining screw for wheel mills and shell mills and other parts i dont want to rust solid. some anti seez is rated for higher temperatures. nickel based i heard is poisonous or not good to get on hands etc
.
some dry parts when slid one on another start forming tears like small metal claws and parts can seez or bind up really tight. if just oiled the oil flows and or dries doesnt last very long. anti seez leaves dried lubricant that is it will dry after many months
.
if you used wax instead at higher temps it will drip off. anti seez meant to be resistant to some heat some up to a red heat. furnace parts that get hot (like nuts and bolts)can stick together unless anti seez applied
.
i have also used to single point form thread very fine (100 tpi or more) threads on a lathe. allows cutter to push metal like knurling but forming screw threads instead. anti seez being a lubricant

tdmidget · Jul 12, 2020

howieranger said:
I can say for certain that Porsches with light alloy lug nuts came from the factory with a copper colored anti seize from the factory at least into the early 2000's The majority of the friction is in the seating surface not the threads.

Kind of a special case. I'm sure Porsche figured you could afford new lugs at every tire change. After all, you can afford a Porsche.

henrya · Jul 12, 2020

This subject is debated ad infinitum on the internet generally and even here on PM.

OT: Lug nuts & anti-seize

I’ll go out on a limb and say its probably more to do with liability than reality. I will also guess that members here have enough sense to do it either way without their wheels falling off.

And of course, the correct answer is yes! Use anti seize on your lug nuts.

anti-seize compounds - [1] what is mechanism of action? & [2] uses in shop?

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