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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shazam View Post
    I still haven't completely fallen off the Tormach bandwagon (it's the next logical step for me), but from what I'm seeing it's a big paperweight. Again, it's a tough pill to swallow for the uninitiated and even for the slightly more initiated. And in my case I'm not chasing tolerances and just want something that will look half decent once made. But the more you know, the better final decision that you end up making, no question about that.
    IMO the problem with Tormach is that they've lost touch with their original market and their prices are pushing up to the point that most people would be better off with a used piece of professional iron, or just jumping straight into a Haas, Hurco, etc. Hell, even one of the Chinese companies making small CNC tools would probably be a better choice. I expect that we'll see some more competition in the sub-Tormach price range for similar machines, but much like Tormach, those companies will take time to grow.

    To the uninitiated Tormachs also look to be comparable to a Haas, when that couldn't be further from the truth. NYC CNC is not helping on that front, I don't really follow John much but I've never seen him do a runoff of a part on the Tormach versus the Haases he has, especially when it comes to output and holding tolerances. I don't think he has a Mini Mill either, which would be the best comparison. I think he's got a TM-1, which isn't so far off I guess.

  2. #402
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    John would never bad mouth the Tormach. They pay him too much to praise it.

    I would guess Tormach is on the edge of doing a "real" CNC machine. As you say, the price point is nearly there anyway.

    I'd be curious to see what they do with the control. All the hobby guys are so against a real CNC control. They want pretty pictures.

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    All the hobby guys are so against a real CNC control. They want pretty pictures.
    That's one way to look at it.

    As a programmer, I have a different take. What you call 'real' CNC controls resemble a FORTRAN compiler from the 1980's compared with a modern integrated development environment of the current generation.

    PDW

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  5. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    That's one way to look at it.

    As a programmer, I have a different take. What you call 'real' CNC controls resemble a FORTRAN compiler from the 1980's compared with a modern integrated development environment of the current generation.

    PDW
    Horses for courses. It's about reliability. All other needs are secondary.

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  7. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Horses for courses. It's about reliability. All other needs are secondary.
    That I agree with 100%. But who's willing to give up Solidworks or a similar 3D parametric modeling package and use nothing but a CAD package written in the 1980's?

    It amazes me how different manufacturers can take something as simple/functional as G code (equivalent to assembler programming IMO) and build so many incompatible interfaces, all of them proprietary.

    It's insanity. Well no, it's marketing. What I don't understand is why there's been no rebellion.

    PDW

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  9. #406
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    Edge Precision

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  11. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    All the hobby guys are so against a real CNC control. They want pretty pictures.
    meaning what?
    as a 'hobby guy' i put a 2007 Fadal VMC15 in my garage.
    "All the hobby guys.....They want pretty pictures"...??? pictures of what?

  12. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    John would never bad mouth the Tormach. They pay him too much to praise it.

    I would guess Tormach is on the edge of doing a "real" CNC machine. As you say, the price point is nearly there anyway.

    I'd be curious to see what they do with the control. All the hobby guys are so against a real CNC control. They want pretty pictures.
    I'm a machinist in a job shop and i want pretty pictures. So much easier to program on the control when you have a graphical interface.

  13. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    Edge Precision
    We'd have to thank you for your well reasoned. Well thought out response. "Edge Precision". That says it all. Not.

    Any chance you could put 6 or 8 words together, to form a sentence where Edge is the bomb???
    .

  14. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by everettengr View Post
    meaning what? as a 'hobby guy' i put a 2007 Fadal VMC15 in my garage.
    "All the hobby guys.....They want pretty pictures"...??? pictures of what?
    So your control is only 12 years old.​ About 2 -3 generations ago. From a defunct manufacturer. Not sure how you self proclaimed hobby guys, slip under the radar for 154 posts. Its been mentioned 10 thousand times. Its a professional only forum.

    Stick that in your garage.

  15. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by machtool View Post
    We'd have to thank you for your well reasoned. Well thought out response. "Edge Precision". That says it all. Not.

    Any chance you could put 6 or 8 words together, to form a sentence where Edge is the bomb???
    .
    My wild guess is that the poster, dazz, is actually adressing the original post's point and providing an answer to "Any Professional Youtube Metalworking Channels?"

    The channel name is "Edge Precision", the machinist is Peter Stanton in Texas if my memory is correct and the link to the channel is here:
    YouTube

    He is definitely a professional machinist and the stuff he shows, almost exclusively CNC milling and turning, is fascinating.

    Jacques

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  17. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapatap View Post
    I'm a machinist in a job shop and i want pretty pictures. So much easier to program on the control when you have a graphical interface.
    You can get a full featured 2.5D CAD/CAM program for free any time you want it.

    When I'm standing next to a machine that can move at 3000 inches a minute and spin a tool at 25,000 RPM with 20 kW to back it up, I'd prefer to leave Bill Gates out of it. Ditto on any system that was developed to do anything other than give 100% reliable realtime control.

    I worked with an Okuma HMC once that had similar specs. It had a fancy Windows front end interface that made pretty pictures. The Windows controlled interface had a fun habit of freezing up for several minutes at a time, and sometimes never recovering. Meanwhile, the proprietary realtime PLC that was actually controlling the machine would zip along just short of light speed executing the G code perfectly.

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  19. #413
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    +1 on Edge Precision, Peter does a great job. I think he is the closest to the "mentor" type that was talked about a few years ago in this thread...

    Another guy to check out for machining content is Stefan Gotteswinter on YouTube and IG. He's German and an eccentric character, but he shows methods that otherwise would never occur to me. Stefan is a professional CNC machinist, but the videos are all out of his home part time shop.

  20. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Somewhat interesting to look at how things have changed in the 2 years since I started this thread.

    Personally, I think YouTube has gone way down the tubes (bad pun, I know). I think it's a victim of its own success. There are now so many people making videos. The quantity has gone up exponentially, but the content has flat lined or maybe gone down.

    I was a big fan of AVE until he did a review of a Fluke multimeter and falsely claimed that it could electrocute you through the non contact voltage detector. I stopped watching his videos at that point.

    I rarely watch YouTube these days.
    Old post, I know - but while I find AvE amusing to watch, when he started out, he was a modern-day reboot of "The Red Green Show", IMO. He cranked up the word-replacement slang (confuser for computer, etc). The video of his that turned me off was when he did a teardown/review of NYC CNC's subplate. I don't rate NYC CNC as a particularly high quality outfit and it seems the guy that owns/runs it is a hobbyist that's batting way above his skill level when it comes to making parts. However, AvE really shit all over the product and talked about how a washer cost 2 cents and it was a mistake not to add one in a certain place, etc. He also harped on endlessly about binning your fasteners. I completely disagree with him. When you're running small batches of parts as a small business, you aren't binning fasteners as if you're making 10,000 units a month.

    Also, he was flat-out wrong on some of his claims/opinions on what the flaws of NYC CNC's product was and where they needed to make changes. He was a total non-machinist passing judgement on a sorta-hack machinist's small business product offering, and he shit all over it. I thought that was particularly lame and shitty of him to do.

  21. #415
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    I've never been able to wrap my head around the flack that John Saunders gets. I've had the pleasure of being in his shop and also meeting him several times outside the shop. He's a very genuine person and is really that high energy off camera. Even if you think he doesn't know what he's doing as a machinist you're missing the point of his success. Unlike countless machinists that have gone bankrupt he's not a machinist that tried to run a business. He a very successful businessman that started a machine shop. And he's doing quite well at it.

  22. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio Mike View Post
    He a very successful businessman that started a machine shop. And he's doing quite well at it.
    The problem is that he makes it appear that he got his money/success by starting a machine shop. It seems pretty obvious that the opposite is true, he got his money/success, then opened a machine shop.

  23. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    The problem is that he makes it appear that he got his money/success by starting a machine shop. It seems pretty obvious that the opposite is true, he got his money/success, then opened a machine shop.
    Yes and no. Yes he was successful prior to starting the shop, however the shop was boot strapped with very little cash. If you watch his videos one of his motto's is fail fast fail cheap. That's why he used the Tormach in the basement of the NY house. What really kicked the shop into gear was the fact he already had a product going to market. Which of course is the whole reason he wanted a shop.

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  25. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio Mike View Post
    Yes and no. Yes he was successful prior to starting the shop, however the shop was boot strapped with very little cash. If you watch his videos one of his motto's is fail fast fail cheap. That's why he used the Tormach in the basement of the NY house. What really kicked the shop into gear was the fact he already had a product going to market. Which of course is the whole reason he wanted a shop.
    actually i like his motto
    fail fast fail cheap.

    im more fascinated by bootstrapped operations.
    the mind is a lot more creative when facing limited resources.
    and its a thrill to watch how teams of boot strapped guys work together on constrains

  26. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio Mike View Post
    I've never been able to wrap my head around the flack that John Saunders gets. I've had the pleasure of being in his shop and also meeting him several times outside the shop. He's a very genuine person and is really that high energy off camera. Even if you think he doesn't know what he's doing as a machinist you're missing the point of his success. Unlike countless machinists that have gone bankrupt he's not a machinist that tried to run a business. He a very successful businessman that started a machine shop. And he's doing quite well at it.
    golden rules of the internet:- there will always be haters.
    can't fight that.
    the more successful you are, the more haters will come to you.

    doesn't matter if you are Steve Job, Tim Cook or Elon Musks, there will always be haters :P

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  28. #420
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