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Any silver soldering experts?

Laverda

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Location
Riverside County, CA
I need to attach a piece of stellite ( 1/2" x 3/4" )to hardened steel using silver solder. The part is a valve lifter for a 1920's engine. I have never silver soldered before and it appears there are a number of different types of the solder. Which one do I use?

Looking at what McMaster sells it all melts at about 1000 degrees which will ruin the heat treat of the part. I also see lower temp solder from other vendors but it does not have a lot of silver in it.

HELP!
 
What you are saying is contradictory. Stellite of course is not heat treatable. I doubt the alloys available for production in the 1920's included or used alloys such as A2 that can stand the temperature of silver solder. Am I misinterpreting what you want? Was the original joint welded and then heat treated and you are just repairing a part or was the original part made with silver solder?

Tom
 
OK, this will sound crazy, but this might be an application to see if you can set it up in a mill and friction weld the stellite to the hardened steel part. This part is subjected to some pretty intense and repetitive impact stress. A weak solder is not going to do well and even the lowest temperature non-plumbing solders will interfere with the part temper. Properly done, a friction weld will have a very shallow HAZ. I'd weld the stellite to a rod of convenient size and chuck the rod and pad in the mill. Once the pad was welded to the lifter, cut off the rod and grind to fully remove soft rod and finish the pad.

I'd have to experiment with scrap steel and stellite to see if this was feasible.

Micro-Tigging it on would be tricky but perhaps possible. Pulse Arc Welding from The Micro Welding Authority - Orion The video shows a microscope equipped micro tig. I've heard stories of folks who might be able to do it.... But none of those stories originate in my shop!

Denis
 
I need to attach a piece of stellite ( 1/2" x 3/4" )to hardened steel using silver solder. The part is a valve lifter for a 1920's engine. I have never silver soldered before and it appears there are a number of different types of the solder. Which one do I use?

Looking at what McMaster sells it all melts at about 1000 degrees which will ruin the heat treat of the part. I also see lower temp solder from other vendors but it does not have a lot of silver in it.

HELP!

silver solder and sliver brazing are often confused. brazing is much stronger but requires higher temperatures
 
The only confusion is that caused by the idiots that think that lead-free plumbing solder is silver solder. It isn't and it never was.

Silver soldering isn't the same as brazing either.

Bah! Humbug! :D
 
Why do you want Stellite? Its properties start to shine at elevated temperatures, there are better materials for the lower temperatures that would be seen by a valve lifter.

Another possibility is direct cladding the wear material, whether it is Stellite or some other alloy, directly on the parent metal. Depending on the wear material, it could be clad using tig, stick or O/A.
 
First off, is this on the bottom and contacts the camshaft or is this the top that contacts the valve or valvetrain? Can you use a modern lifter with a sleeve in the bore? We need DETAILS. ;-)
 
There is some confusion regarding the term silver solder. Old timers and jewellers are using the term for soldering with copper-silver alloy - the composition can be formulated (with other metal traces)to have a wide range of melting temperatures between 650C up to 900C and even higher. Many sources call now this process brazing, though brazing alloy can be different than the copper-silver and can contain nickel, silicon and other metal to bring its melting temperate to close to 1000C. In my youth (quite a while ago...) brazing always meant using some form of bronze alloy (and silver-soldering using the silver alloy)
Today silver solder is often used to describe soft solder containing mostly tin with small percentage of silver and other metals. This is not much different in strength and melting point to the familiar tin-lead alloys except that it does not contain lead and can be a little stronger.
As for silver soldering (as an old timer for me it is using silver copper alloy)the 700C temperature does not necessarily will soften all steel alloys. I often silver solder parts made out of D2 or similar steels without affecting the hardness much. If you are attaching an existing piece to a freshly made air-harden steel part, the silver soldering (choosing a high melting point alloy, the so called "hard" silver solder) will do the soldering and hardening at the same time. The rest of the heat treatment can follow at lower temperatures without affecting the joint. For best results this silver soldering is done in a temperature controlled muffle furnace.
 
I need to attach a piece of stellite ( 1/2" x 3/4" )to hardened steel

No, actually, you do not.

No "1920's engine" is ever again going to see long, hard, use, nor did they when new. Stresses were lower, all-around, "racing" included. Lubricants, OTOH, sucked.

A decent steel, simply hardened, optionally nitrided, dead-average but MODERN lubricants, and your lifter will last longer than it is likely to be asked to last. Cam lobes as well. As is the case in far more highly stressed IC engines of latter days.

"Stellite" one uses for exhaust valve seats or cutting-tools. Not a great deal else.

If you want to get anal about that, just make the entire lifter of Stellite.

"Red hardness" is but one of its properties. It is also strong and serious tough. Cheap, not so much, but with modern tooling and grinding options, no longer all that hard to shape.

You've got but the one "1920's" engine, yah?

Can't see them going back into mass-production, certainly not in California, what with CARB regulations and such.

:)
 
The stellite foot contacts the camshaft. Part is a 7/16" diameter shaft 3" long that is internally threaded on one end to adjust clearance at the valve and the other end is 1/2" x 3/4" where the stellite is soldered on. Think of a tall skinny top hat shape. I am trying to copy exactly how the factory did it in 1929. What steel they used for this is unknown but it is file hard. The problem I see is heating the part up to melt the solder will take it over 1000 degrees and anneal the steel. I was thinking of using 8620 as I have been making other parts for the engine out of it and pack carburizing with great results. Perhaps another steel would be better? Another option is to weld hard face in place of the stellite, but can you quench a part from high temp with hard face or will it crack?

It is a single cylinder side valve air cooled engine so only need to make two valve lifters. The valves, springs and half the lifter all run out in the air so are rusty and worn out and don't receive much oil when running.

In case you think I don't know what I am doing, you are 100% correct. Machining the parts and heat treating is a piece of cake but the stellite??????????????

If I put the old part in your hand and said copy it not knowing what steel was used in 1929, what would you use?

How did they do this 89 years ago?
 
The stellite foot contacts the camshaft. Part is a 7/16" diameter shaft 3" long that is internally threaded on one end to adjust clearance at the valve and the other end is 1/2" x 3/4" where the stellite is soldered on. Think of a tall skinny top hat shape. I am trying to copy exactly how the factory did it in 1929. The valves, springs and half the lifter all run out in the air so are rusty and worn out. What steel they used for this is unknown but it is file hard. The problem I see is heating the part up to melt the solder will take it over 1000 degrees and anneal the steel. I was thinking of using 8620 as I have been making other parts for the engine out of it and pack carburizing with no problems. Perhaps another steel would be better? Another option is to weld hard face in place of the stellite, but can you quench a part from high temp with hard face or will it crack?

In case you think I don't know what I am doing, you are 100% correct. Machining the parts is a piece of cake but the stellite??????????????

How did they do this 89 years ago?

I could perhaps crawl up in the attic and look it up. My oldest metallurgy texts were Dad's, Marshall College, 1926-1929, and bought used at that.

"Ordnance steel" - your 8620 - did, in fact, yield to Stellite here and there. Longer-lives for key parts of crew-served machine guns, IIRC.

Denis friction-welding technique is serious OLD. I've used it. One welds FIRST, then heat-treats the steel. The Stellite just ignores all that - its own critical temperatures "on a higher plane", so to speak.

But I'd not bother, here.

I'd just case-harden the living piss out of 8620, then Parkerize and oil it it to deal with that "exposed" challenge, same as battlefield use has proven to work well, a hundred million weapons or three..

Armaments works were also able to get serious-deep hard-surface penetration in 8620 when they NEEDED that. Other times, thinner "gas carburizing" at high production rates was used where that was good enough.

And.. one CAN weld 8620.. with "some" care.. but waay less trouble than welding 4XXX.
Check the elements in the alloy. They are actually VERY close cousins in most other respects.

Nitriding has been a pragmatic and affordable IC-engine go-to for ages by now, as well. hard Chrome or even electroless Cobalt can deal with a good deal of "scuffing", too.

So long as.. you don't go OCD about "period correct" LUBRICANTS? Modern lubes would let even ignorant 4XXX "pre-hard" live longer in this service than you might expect. Just keep your valve lash religiously adjusted so you are dealing more with sliding than hammer-blows. DAMHIKT.

Whomever specified Stellite, 1929, was attempting to over-Engineer so as to "bubba proof" and/or brag. The material was not yet well-understood, still sort of an "exotic".

It wasn't otherwise common, nor needed, any more than tubular titanium con rods for an otherwise rather marginally engineered and "ephemeral" Ferrari V-12.

Medical professional I once knew pulled the V-12 out of his Ferrari, re-purposed it into a ski boat he ran about five power-on hours in a whole year, if that.

The lovely to look at Ferrari was a much more reliable and docile in traffic daily-driver with a small block Chevy V8 mill. The girls he was always adding to his collection never knew enough about V12/V8 exhaust sound to detect the difference.

They eyeball your ass? Only checking how thick the wallet is!

:)
 
Why not use oxy-ac to overlay the stellite directly onto the steel part? You can cut stellite with carbide tools to get the flat surface you require.
 
Why not use oxy-ac to overlay the stellite directly onto the steel part? You can cut stellite with carbide tools to get the flat surface you require.

One could "get there" more cheaply with ignorant excavator-bucket-tooth or rock-crusher hardfacing rod, Dee Cee stick welder.

With the "right" rig, and preformed "teat(s), one might even be able to resistance/pressure weld a Stellite pad to steel?

I still say it is gross overkill for the application, though.

Not as if it was an M-60 LMG or 50 cal HMG barrel - then 5.56 SAW - that had to keep on chucking, orange-red glow-in-the-dark or the wrong guys died.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/822736.pdf
 
The camshaft it runs on is likely cast iron so almost anything harder than the cam will work. Modern cams and tappets are case hardened. Far more important thaan the material is the shape. "Flat" tappets are actually slightly convex.
 








 
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