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  1. #1
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    Default Apprentices and the like

    I find myself in a bit of a quandary. Is it ethically responsible to let an apprentice try something that he sees no problem with, but is almost certainly going to crash and break tooling because he doesn't have enough big crashes on manual equip. behind him yet. It's on a manual lathe, the injury risk is minimal and the experience is worth more than the work piece and tooling in my opinion

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    I think you have answered your own question.

    "It's on a manual lathe, the injury risk is minimal and the experience is worth more than the work piece and tooling in my opinion."

    If he doesn't start somewhere, a year from now he will still have the same level of inexperience. Where does that get you? People crash stuff. I still do it from time to time and I've been around machines for over fifty years. Safety and the ability to not crash things are a mindset. You can't get rushed by trying to impress someone with how fast you can get something made. It's like driving, look both ways at least twice before pulling out in heavy traffic. Speed comes with experience.

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    Well, let's hear what exactly he plans to do first. Next, are you the owner of that tooling or just a fellow employee or supervisor?

    And I have broken probably a pretty hefty pile of tooling as an apprentice. But I would far rather have had someone just give me safe limits and not have broken any. I always felt terrible breaking things that didn't belong to me which I knew were expensive. This is where he should be looking to you for advice if you have more experience. A safe feed limit for tooling for instance is not something he should have to learn by breaking tools.

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    If there is ANY injury risk I wouldn't let it fly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    If there is ANY injury risk I wouldn't let it fly...
    I watched a guy break his hip walking in from the parking lot.

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    Young people want to buck the rule and prove their something, often a high cost.
    We have that at the deer blind company, most every new guy makes the same mistakes because doing something seems logical to them, and only breaking something makes them understand.

    The grandfather clause respected by First Nation people (Anmerican Indians) should prevail. (if this old guy lived this long he must be doing things right)

    Shop owner and boss advice must be the choice of any process.
    *Changes must be talked about first.

    but yes, when a guy/gal has years in a trade, often there are things the company can learn.

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonechip View Post
    I find myself in a bit of a quandary. Is it ethically responsible to let an apprentice try something that he sees no problem with, but is almost certainly going to crash and break tooling because he doesn't have enough big crashes on manual equip. behind him yet. It's on a manual lathe, the injury risk is minimal and the experience is worth more than the work piece and tooling in my opinion
    Hey there post number one.
    Let me ask you this... Is it your lathe you are planning on watching him crash???
    Get a clue and go away.

    -Doozer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozer View Post
    Hey there post number one.
    Let me ask you this... Is it your lathe you are planning on watching him crash???
    Get a clue and go away. -Doozer
    Doozer, you are sometimes an arrogant prick. You were never 'new', never had questions and have always been the 'expert'. A legend in your own mind. 'Hey there post number one'.... What? Do you somehow think your activity here for 20 years has some bearing on anything? For all you know, someone posting for the first time may have a great deal more experience, knowledge and expertise than you do. You'd find that hard to believe, and harder to accept, but it is still a fact.

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    In trade school my instructor was explaining shaper setup including what to watch out for. Example, it the clapper head is swung sideways and the stroke length and ram position are in a certain relation, the clapper head can strike the shaper body on the backstroke. He mentioned this because they had a shaper at his previous employer, someone had failed to note the potential and when the machine was started up the clapper head broke and skittered across the floor. Everyone else present (except unfortunate operator) thought that was just hilarious. When a student did it in the instructor's shop he didn't think it was funny AT ALL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    If there is ANY injury risk I wouldn't let it fly...
    In another life, I had to deal with this type of attitude a lot in order to make it 'fly' (literally). You can 'what if' yourself into not doing anything at all. LIFE is RISKY! There is a balance though where one must prepare, minimize risk and then DO something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonechip View Post
    I find myself in a bit of a quandary. Is it ethically responsible to let an apprentice try something that he sees no problem with, but is almost certainly going to crash and break tooling because he doesn't have enough big crashes on manual equip. behind him yet. It's on a manual lathe, the injury risk is minimal and the experience is worth more than the work piece and tooling in my opinion
    You can't show and explain to him why it's a bad idea without crashing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Heaton View Post
    In another life, I had to deal with this type of attitude a lot in order to make it 'fly' (literally). You can 'what if' yourself into not doing anything at all. LIFE is RISKY! There is a balance though where one must prepare, minimize risk and then DO something.
    Me doing it on my machine...ok

    Someone else doing it on my machine a knowing there's a chance of injury...not a chance.

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    You could give him a copy of "How To run A lathe"

    1919 How to Run a Lathe - South Bend Lathe Works - 1919 - reprint | eBay


    *But he may have a good idea so do consider what he wants to do.

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    Limits are only known after a crash

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonechip View Post
    I find myself in a bit of a quandary. Is it ethically responsible to let an apprentice try something that he sees no problem with, but is almost certainly going to crash and break tooling because he doesn't have enough big crashes on manual equip. behind him yet. It's on a manual lathe, the injury risk is minimal and the experience is worth more than the work piece and tooling in my opinion

    Industrial Lathe Accident - YouTube

    Not gory, but scary. Keep in mind a lathe will grab you and not let go. Not sure how you are evaluating "minimal" risk...? It only takes 1 second...

  23. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonechip View Post
    I find myself in a bit of a quandary. Is it ethically responsible to let an apprentice try something that he sees no problem with, but is almost certainly going to crash and break tooling because he doesn't have enough big crashes on manual equip. behind him yet. It's on a manual lathe, the injury risk is minimal and the experience is worth more than the work piece and tooling in my opinion
    If you're certain that it's a learning experience, then have someone with experience do it to show him why it's bad. The risk of injury is even lower that way because they know what to expect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    If you're certain that it's a learning experience, then have someone with experience do it to show him why it's bad. The risk of injury is even lower that way because they know what to expect.
    And also prove that it is not a good idea, where you might have the I don't want to attitude.

    I have and do work with owners who have that attitude, and workers just abide with a dumb way of doing things.

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    Lathes tend to be machines that don't tolerate stupid stuff. I can't think of many 'low risk intentional crashes' when it comes to lathes.

    All that aside....it is interesting from a 'scientific' perspective how people so aggressively resist warnings. How they so aggressively will pursue a path once they have chosen it.

    This summons the 'fools rush in...' motto. It also gives birth to what we know as the 'askhole'.

    People who run machines they have no business running. People who get married to other people despite all the red flags. People who sign notes for houses and cars and boats they know they can't afford.

    I don't begrudge anyone the right to fail....though I do notice there are a lot of people who rush into the failure then wipe the resultant booger on other people. Those people...I got a problem with.

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  29. #19
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    Owners?
    My buddy Donny broke into grinding at a substantial grinding shop that made well-known special cutting tools. The owner ran the whole shop with no coolant allowed on his grinders, mostly surface grinders, B&S 13 grinders and the like along with lathes, mills and other support machines.. That shop even made their own design radial relief and form relief grinding fixtures that were very unique and high-tech. They even sent machines out for factory rebuild.
    When Donny came to the shop where I worked he was really surprised how coolant could help grinding.

    on topic ..because the owner/boss may not be 100% right on everything..but stubborn enough that nobody tells them so.

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  31. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    Lathes tend to be machines that don't tolerate stupid stuff.
    Very true.
    And surface grinders!


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