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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punkinhead View Post
    I watched a guy break his hip walking in from the parking lot.
    The potato gun in your hands having nothing to do with it of course.

  2. #22
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    Maybe you define “crash” differently than I do.
    As someone who has mentored people in a few professions, my vote is no. I find that while people often need to make mistakes themselves (and occasionally prove me wrong when I let them), a “What will happen if?” usually gets me a lot more respect than letting them damage something. We have a conversation, then once they are aware of the risk, they can decide if it’s still a good idea or not. This respect tends to be repaid by them paying better attention when I teach them things in the future.
    If the cost is them milling through a $20 replaceable work stop or ruining a cutter I’ll hint, but not explicitly stop them, but I don’t call that a crash. If it’s going to result in permanent damage to a chuck, vise jaw, ways, spindle, etc. then I’ll provide much stronger discouragement, and sooner.

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    Explain the danger clearly and let the work be done. Maybe the youngster pulls it off just void of a crash. Adrenalin teaches well.

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    The owner and an experienced worker should discuss the suggestion to determine if safe for the work, machine, and people, then proceed.
    just breaking a tool bit can cause unexpected injury.
    It is not worth breaking a machine to prove a small point.
    Wrongful death can cost much.


    try something that he sees no problem with, like skateboarding down a handrail along a cement staircase....
    "I can do this mom."

    If anyone watched me hog grind an emergency machine part they would say No, No, No...and I can think or a few grinding setups that I was a fool to do.

    *But, We are shooting ducks in the dark because we don't know what he wants to do.

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Heaton View Post
    Doozer, you are sometimes an arrogant prick. You were never 'new', never had questions and have always been the 'expert'. A legend in your own mind. 'Hey there post number one'.... What? Do you somehow think your activity here for 20 years has some bearing on anything? For all you know, someone posting for the first time may have a great deal more experience, knowledge and expertise than you do. You'd find that hard to believe, and harder to accept, but it is still a fact.
    When it comes to safety, let me say that I am NOT a safety nazi.
    I pretty much put trust in the individual that they know
    generally want they are doing. However if I see someone who
    is genuinely ignorant and about to hurt themselves, I will
    politely let them know.
    But this new poster is asking is it Ok to let someone crash a
    machine ? ? ? It sounds like a trouble troll.
    No sane person thinks it is even remotely Ok to knowingly
    let someone crash a machine. That is sadistic and twisted
    and for sure dangerous. Sounds exactly to me like a trouble
    troll. So hell yes I call him out as a new poster.
    New trolls create logins all the time. If you don't like
    the way I roll here, no skin off my nose. I call them
    as I see them. Whatever pal.

    -Doozer

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Industrial Lathe Accident - YouTube

    Not gory, but scary. Keep in mind a lathe will grab you and not let go. Not sure how you are evaluating "minimal" risk...? It only takes 1 second...
    Gloves, long sleeves, no safety glasses and what appears to be moccasins or Birkenstock’s or something. I guess a necktie or waist-length hair could have made the situation marginally worse.
    At least the guy didn’t die.

    Plenty of worse pictures and videos out there… you know the ones. The videos where you know that afterwards Dmitri had to go clean Ivan out of the chip pan with a shop-vac.




    Be safe




    Jeremy

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    Like I mentioned, and Buck as well: it comes down to what exactly we are talking about. If he's running a South Bend lathe and trying to center drill the end of a shaft running at 20 RPM and will break a center drill, no bigs. If he's running a 24" lathe and wanting to start turning a 4' long shaft at 400 RPM with no steady or center, Houston we have a very large problem...

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  11. #28
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    If you can't guarantee there won't be an injury then there's a risk to the newb. I'll stand there and allow a drill to be run dull or a smaller cutter to chip but if there's a risk of injury I can't willingly let someone get injured or machinery get damaged.

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    I agree that safety is the first concern. When I had ‘adventurous’ apprentices I looked at them for two characteristics: were they trying to learn or to show off. Those who tried to learn would have a pro stand with them and go step-by-step through the proposed procedure. My own son was more concerned with showing up the old man, making him a loose cannon. He is in another field now.

  13. #30
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    Well...

    I understand your logic, but really, how in the actual fuck is this even a consideration?

    And all those responding in support of the idea - wtf?!

    He's your apprentice. Your role is to guide him in how to do things correctly, explain to him why his stupid ideas are stupid, and above all prevent him from hurting himself and breaking shit.

    Anyone and everyone who chooses to work in this field will have endless opportunities to fuck up in their time. There is absolutely no reason to just sit back and watch it happen to a young guy who doesn't know better.

    For what, just to teach him a lesson?

    Why do you think he requires to be taught this lesson in this way? Is he too bold around dangerous equipment? Show him some graphic videos of shit going bad. Plenty of them around. Emphasise how quickly things can go bad when you're doing something sketchy. Is he just a useless waste of time? Show him the door, or explain the situation to someone who can.

    If he's a good guy with a good attitude and some brains, he'll make plenty of mistakes all by himself when you're not looking, and he'll learn from them.

  14. #31
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    Default The door

    I think the OP should be shown the door.

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    If the apprentice is suggesting something simple like cutting a thread at a higher speed. I did that, I could cut threads at near half the normal or expected time...and safely.

    Young eyes and reflexes were factors for that ability.

    So with we not knowing what the proposal is we are making hen's chatter..conversation with no purpose or end.

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  17. #33
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    In another life I taught on a certified 3 1/2 year Tool & Die training program. When dealing with an apprentice. He comes in the shop with no pre-conceived notions. If left to his own devices, he can get injured, damage the equipment or stand idle. None are good alternatives. I was blessed when starting my career in Job Shops in Chicago working with master Tool & Die Makers that took me under there wing and gave me a chance to improve my skills until I was able to take off on my own. An apprentice will stay an apprentice if left to his own devices without a hand-up from those that came before him.
    Roger

  18. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonechip View Post
    I find myself in a bit of a quandary. Is it ethically responsible to let an apprentice try something that he sees no problem with, but is almost certainly going to crash and break tooling because he doesn't have enough big crashes on manual equip. behind him yet. It's on a manual lathe, the injury risk is minimal and the experience is worth more than the work piece and tooling in my opinion
    Stonechip,

    You should be immediately relived of your position. "It's on a manual lathe, the injury risk is minimal".... there you go, you said it, you and your bumbling school are on the hook.

    Never allow any student to make his own risk assessment.

  19. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Stonechip, You should be immediately relived of your position. "It's on a manual lathe, the injury risk is minimal".... there you go, you said it, you and your bumbling school are on the hook. Never allow any student to make his own risk assessment.
    Pretty strong words from someone who has no idea what, exactly, this is all about. The OP is the one who has assessed the risk as minimal, not the new guy. Without seeing the setup and the proposed work, no one here can judge the validity of the proposal. So many of these replies sound like gov't inspectors popping off with chapter and verse but with no clue what is actually going on. I still hate those people (gov't inspectors) and I haven't had to deal with them for six blissful years!

    Risk comes in infinite variety. Sometimes all it is is the potential for embarrassment and a hearty 'told you so'. In this case, we just don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Heaton View Post
    Pretty strong words from someone who has no idea what, exactly, this is all about. The OP is the one who has assessed the risk as minimal, not the new guy. Without seeing the setup and the proposed work, no one here can judge the validity of the proposal. So many of these replies sound like gov't inspectors popping off with chapter and verse but with no clue what is actually going on. I still hate those people (gov't inspectors) and I haven't had to deal with them for six blissful years!

    Risk comes in infinite variety. Sometimes all it is is the potential for embarrassment and a hearty 'told you so'. In this case, we just don't know.
    Hello Gordon,
    When it comes to shop safety, my comments perhaps were not strong enough.

    An apprentice needs to keep his mouth shut and ears open. He/She does not have any say on how they are instructed. This is not about fast food training, this is as serious as any job can be.

  21. #37
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    2 eyes, 2 ears, one mouth, and they should be used in that proportion. They will learn quickly if they can follow this advice.

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  23. #38
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    Quick apprentice story...we have some college kids they call apprentices, mostly doing maintenance work. So they want me to teach them how to run the lathe. Easy project, 3.00 delrin plastic with bores one either side, 6 pieces. I'm doing them one at a time because when the 3 of them get together they turn into women and their attention span goes below zero. Kid keeps leaving the key in the chuck. It got to the point that I was throwing it across the room.

    So I make him make the last part from scratch, using everything he learned. He finishes and I don't know what he was doing, hand on the chuck key and he turns the machine on!!!. I was livid, luckily it ejected the key. He did well on making the part, but failed for a major safety violation...

    This was yesterday

  24. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Quick apprentice story...we have some college kids they call apprentices, mostly doing maintenance work. So they want me to teach them how to run the lathe. Easy project, 3.00 delrin plastic with bores one either side, 6 pieces. I'm doing them one at a time because when the 3 of them get together they turn into women and their attention span goes below zero. Kid keeps leaving the key in the chuck. It got to the point that I was throwing it across the room.

    So I make him make the last part from scratch, using everything he learned. He finishes and I don't know what he was doing, hand on the chuck key and he turns the machine on!!!. I was livid, luckily it ejected the key. He did well on making the part, but failed for a major safety violation...

    This was yesterday
    If you have apprentices learning to run a lathe, this should be a must have in the shop.

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/08569030

    Spring loaded so it can't stay in the chuck.

  25. #40
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    I would say as a trainer your job is to do your best to protect someone's safety and company property while teaching. There can always be that weird freak accident that does more damage than anyone could imagine. There are plenty of people that have some strange training methods, the worst kind are the ones who were trained by a jackass who could not wait to treat a trainee like crap when they got their first one.

    No idea what you are doing, but I have let people get a feel on a manual lathe for tooling that was either dull or improperly ground. Light touch, small lathe, mild material, easy hand feed, no risk.


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