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  1. #61
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    Hi Semi--
    Here is where you go for the American version of your lathe

    Go see Mclean
    Lathe Production & Secondary Operations - Machines and Tooling International

    They have been around for a long time.

    LOST

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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    We have 2 Omniturns ...
    Didn't they make a kit for putting on an older Hardinge ?

    I love old mechanical machines and hate electronics but I think I'd go this way, too. It's just easier ...

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    HI Lost:
    Thanks for the link.
    I hope you'll find yourself in the coming year.

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    If your turning crane sheaves, by all means follow the Dupont recommendations, but for your needs,trust me slower will work a fair bit better for you. Nylon is odd stuff, you need to remember, small profiles like this get hot quick, nylon gets hot it expands and gets softer, your going to be fighting both of thoes issues a plenty!

    If you can not single point turn it - make a single point tool sharp enough to do this, your not going to do it with form tools, you have to be able to walk before you run! If you don't understand the cutting angles and edge quality a single point tool needs to form this kinda part and cut effectively with no force applied to the part other than rotational torque, you fundamentally don't grasp how to make the form tooling you need or how to make that form tooling work!

    The correctly ground tool has a sharp enough edge that it cuts with minimal torque, its rake angle is such that it neither pulls or pushes on the material being cut and its clearance is enough to clear, but not so much as to not provide a nats of support. Equally for something like this you want all the cutting force along the spindle axis, you don't want any force applied along the x axis to make a cut. You need the waste material supporting the part till the parts cut free!

    For a family of 7 parts some of em just a few thousand, IMHO you either want a couple of thoes lathes, or go cnc because setups going to kill you, but thats my thoughts and i hope you can prove us all wrong!

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    Yea nylon is interesting stuff to cut, u wana think of it more as "shaving" the material off not so much cutting it. I was asked to machine it once (not sure of the exact grade of nylon) and didnt have proper tooling so just used an old hss chamfer tool in a 45 degree angle holder and it took a bit to get the feed n speed dialed in but cut nice after i made a couple ugly ones ha. Very slow spindle speed and quick feed and very light cuts if i remember correctly. Google machining nylon and youll find inserts made for it and also get an idea of what u can use if u don't wana spend a ton of money on specialty tooling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by semionb View Post
    Actually, if you look at the video carefully, they have a single piece of steel cutting both sides of the part, doing the wall. This is what I was thinking.
    Anyway, for all those who commented, I want to thank you, and I wish every one a Happy New Year, all the best in the coming year. Keep those good ideas coming.
    I went back and looked at the video and every time they got close to the actually cutting tools they jerked the camera away. I could see 2 tools next each other that could have been cutting. Which brings up an idea.
    I have done something similar when forming on the outside not the end. The attached foto shows a form tool holder on our A42 Traub. It was modified by us to hold to 1/2 tools. On the far side it has 2 set screws to trim squareness and one showing on the outside that tightens the 2 tools together. There is a single angled tool in the set up showing.a42dth.jpg
    If you use the same type of tool holder for end working and make the tool that cuts the outside sharp all the way to the thickness (you can surface grind the side till the cutting edge is the same as the tool thickness) grind the other tool so you get the depths and IDs correctly set. The back ends of the tools would be qualified so when they were set even the cutting edges will be correct. The OD tool will not need to be exact but qualifying will make set up easier.
    Need for sharpening will not be mean scrapping the tool as you can easily shim the distance between the ID and OD correct again.
    On either a cam or air over hydraulic screw machine you will have to move the tool holder accurately when doing a size change or resharpening, a sliding tool holder with a adjustable screw stop will be a must. As Adama mentioned on the next page it will be a real time consuming chore.
    A used CHNC 1 5/8 Omniturn or GT would make it an easy thing. Other GT machines may be available but I am only familiar with these. For the kind of production you are wanting to do I would not want a turret machine.
    Sea Moss, Omniturn has stopped making attachments, I bought the last one for the CHNC, maybe they or Richlin have a few left for HC machines. I really wish I had bought that used one last year, even if it needed spindle bearings and rebuilding of the slide, I would be money and time ahead. It turned out that mine needed spindle bearings anyway. Should have the spindle back in a couple of days. Then I have a bunch of time having to fabricate stuff that the guy I bought it from threw away.

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    Hi Adam:
    I am not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, I am just looking for a way that works, if it is possible to make the idea work. That's the reason I am here. You guys do this stuff day in and day out. I am trying to find a way in your world.
    I understand what you're saying about how the lathe and tooling must operate. You need to have a feather touch to machine parts like these.
    But I am trying to find a way to speed up setups. Because in this case I would be starting with a clean sheet, is there way to design a way to swap out tools quickly?
    Also, can we possibly go to PM to discuss some of the stuff?
    Anyway, I really appreciate your ideas. But i don't own a shop, and giving out work it may be difficult to determine who is going to work on the project. So controlling machining can be challenging. And if something goes wrong, you need to find the source, and that can be challenging too. So the idea is to do the project while controlling all the things that can go wrong, or to figure out the causes. That means wasting time and money. But this is how things are. But if I can eliminate human errors in this process, that would speed things up somewhat.

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    Hi Fred:
    It would help if you can view the video one frame at a time. I looked at it in slo-mo, but Windows is not letting me take screen shots. That would be best way to see it. If I could take screen shots, I would post them.
    In your discussion of the tool set up, I sort got through it. I am not very familiar with all the accessories available as toolholders.
    I tried out an idea for the ID, using an endmill. I used a 4 blade endmill to do 2 IDs of the part, with 2 blades for each diameter. It might be possible to do it with a 2 blade endmill. I tried it out, and it actually worked, but the person who made the tool couldn't make the tool sharp enough, didn't know how to make sharp enough, so the surface finish wasn't good. But the difference between the diameters was there. It is possible combining the 2 tools, ID and OD, could be done based on a similar idea. It would require a tailstock, but i am pretty sure there is a pneumatic tailstock that can be installed on this lathe. I am trying to make a PHD, Push Here Dummy tooling setup, that gorillas can screw up. Anyway, using this set up, I could possibly have a mandrel that would support the wall during the OD machining if only one diameter is done at a time. Anyway, just some ideas I thought of to try to make machining secure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by semionb View Post
    Anyway, just some ideas I thought of to try to make machining secure.
    It might be cheaper to just hire dobedave or another screw machine guy to figure this out for you. Some of these guys have been running this stuff since Mr Brown met Mr Sharpe ... Get a guy who is no longer under daily pressure to make payroll and maybe the cost would be cheaper than futzing around yourself for the next six months.

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    Sea Moss:
    You might have a point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by semionb View Post
    But if I can eliminate human errors in this process, that would speed things up somewhat.
    Yeah, but you need to realise theres very few people that can wake up in the morning and make this kinda stuff and have it work first time, let alone work first time and be easily swappable between 7 flavours. Stuff like this has a certain amount of development time in it and refinement time. You need a supplier to own that and make - take it on as there problem or else its a financial black hole like the mould tool was.

    Your not going to swap tooling from part style 1 to part style 2 and have a great part just drop off, every time you swap theres going to be some set-up and tweaking for this level of pre-scion. Hell everything will need cleaning down too and theres going to be some regrinding of the tooling as its used too even in nylon at these qty'ies.

    As to PM, please understand this is a free forum, my advice is free and a lot of the tricks i have gained from being here has been seeing how others resolve similar problems then applying them to my own, generally as soon as discussions like this switch to PM there’s no further benefit for the community at large from the ideas that are kicked around. Hence personally i don't like pm for these kinda chats, it just benefits no one, this place works like it does by others coming along and pointing out the flaws in a idea! And if your lucky the fixes!!

    As to not having some kinda on site shop, think thats going to be a real killer, places that usual run this style of lathe have significant on-site tooling manufacturing repair and modification capabilities (and the grouchy old machinists to do this with out haveing there hands held). Buying that in may - may not be possible were you are but it will be costly but worse still it will be slow and down time will be through the roof getting this set up. Lots of people new to machining massively underestimate the auxiliary bits and tooling it takes for a given machine to make parts and keep it making parts.

    You have stated a few times now you want tooling to plunge turning od and id, then come back and cut the chamfers, IMHO that won't work the force from cutting thoes chamfers will be greater than the strength of the part, you would do real well to form thoes chamfers as you plunge into the face of your tube, you have the material to support it like that, equally you never realy want to turn material off the part for things like this you cut the waste material off the tube, leaving the part behind. Sounds a minor play on words i know, but when you try it you will understand.

    If you want to truly eliminate setup time, IMHO you need to look at a cnc lathe, a od turning tool a id turning tool and a parting off tool and you can make any size - flavour of that part in say upto 1" tall and several inches in diameter. No std common iso insert tooling will do it they are all too much nose radius, your into the specialist ground insert screw machine type tools with there odd ball cutting heads, google simtek for the kinda stuff i would use to do this kinda part (if i was not grinding my own out of solid hss which is in all honesty far more likely), but you can get them off the shelf and i feel pretty confident that once the machines in your premises a day or 2 and you can be spitting out good parts. Different part, call a different programme and your off its that easy. Even with conventional single point turning your still talking secounds a part, especially if you run them on a gang tooled lathe so there’s no tool changer time.

    You kinda hint that this lathe may not be being used by you, not sure who your planning on haveing run them, but can't stress enough if they can't already make them on a conventional lathe this lathe is not the secret sauce that will give them the skills to make them for you. As several others have said, parts like this have a feel - skill of there own, the lathe is the least significant part in that!

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    Hi Adama:
    I get your drift on not using PM, except I wanted you to see the type of lathe I'd like to use. Since this site has no provision for posting videos, I can only pm it. Which is ok if you don't want to see it. But what I meant is that it may not be this particular lathe, but more the type of lathe.
    I have a little bit of experience acquired while paying other to do my stuff, so I understand what you're saying about weakening certain points. But what if, for example, a different way is used, such as doing the ID using a modified endmill with 2 diameters to cut the ID and then using a mandrel to support the wall while the OD is being machined. Certainly, the mandrel will stiffen the part. The only problem is going to be that most of the lathes don't come with a motorized tailstock. On the automatic lathe it would be possible to install a pneumatic tailstock with a couple of tool positions to switch between the endmill and the mandrel.
    Just an idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by semionb View Post
    Hi Adama:
    I get your drift on not using PM, except I wanted you to see the type of lathe I'd like to use. Since this site has no provision for posting videos, I can only pm it. Which is ok if you don't want to see it. But what I meant is that it may not be this particular lathe, but more the type of lathe.
    I have a little bit of experience acquired while paying other to do my stuff, so I understand what you're saying about weakening certain points. But what if, for example, a different way is used, such as doing the ID using a modified endmill with 2 diameters to cut the ID and then using a mandrel to support the wall while the OD is being machined. Certainly, the mandrel will stiffen the part. The only problem is going to be that most of the lathes don't come with a motorized tailstock. On the automatic lathe it would be possible to install a pneumatic tailstock with a couple of tool positions to switch between the endmill and the mandrel.
    Just an idea.
    A automatic mandrill is a interesting solution, problem is you gotta control its depth, its gotta be the right size and its gotta be very true running (not trivial at this tolerance band), equally you need a different one for each different part to varying degrees, plus side it could also catch the part on part off and if large enough - free running or even powered it could also crudely give the parted off part enough momentum to ensure a fully clean part off (google twin spindle part off - transfer, means a truly burr free cut off if done right), a extractor could then scrape the part off into a collection chute too, so parts are separated from the swaf. bad side is you gotta make all that work too! That said, on the big plus side the better you make this thing work the lower your long term effort is on a part like this in these qty's.

    Theres lots of ways to go, theres also lots of experimentation needed to make it a fast cheap easy process, hence may really pay you to consider just getting a cheap lathe and having a go, then go from there, most places you can pick up a lathe small enough yet also big enough to make your part for under 2K, get one use it as a test bed, prove what does - does not work and go from there.

    If your looking for someone to partner up with, IMHO let them make you a part conventionally how ever they wish, but make it clear whilst you will let them double or even tripple the part thickness, you want thoes dead sharp corners, only then would i go forwards - start paying someone to develop the idea further! Else you fall back into the moulding trap.

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    A typical end mill is too blunt to cut a part like this though, you need something a lot lot sharper!

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    Adama
    I made a tool like this, for a starter tool it seemed to work quite well. It needed more sharpness, but it was able to cut 2 diameters.You design stuff into the endmill to act a stop for the mandrel. In other words, have the endmill cut a stop inside the pipe to stop the mandrel travel. I used a 4 flute endmill, 2 flutes for each diameter. Not sure if more or fewer flutes would be better, but other features may be designed into the tool, to make other cuts. The mandrel can run on a live center. I used live center with interchangeable tips. I made the mandrel one of the tips.

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    End mill wise, the issue is you have the flutes still rubbing on the work, more flutes more rubbing, more heat and your chasing that viscous circle once more. That said i too do use a end mill (9/16") to plunge in a small recess on one of the nylon bits i make, problem is its just not that clean a cut, geometry is wrong.

    Google port tool, its the type of cutter thats far more designed to do this kinda stuff than a end mill, the geometry is better - optomised. Theres lots of tooling places custom makeing them, so they would not be all that expensive to get made, over here you can have them made with a few different diameters for around the £100 range

    Old timers use to use whats called hollow mills on turret lathes, basically similar to a mag drill - rota-broach type cutter, purpose was to do what your end mill is to the id but to od's of parts. not sure that would work well in nylon though.

    It may be possible (this is a idea im speculating - no idea if it would work or not??) to simply mount a stationary cutter to the od of your center manderal, like this the manderal provides support and the cutter has the surface of the mandrill backing up the part its cutting, sorta like a internally supporting roller box tool (anouther good old time turret lathe tool) Hell you might not even need a mandrill, just use a simple single roller to support the part on the inside like a box tools rollers would a od part.

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    Hi Adama:
    Thanks for the advice on porting tools.
    Can't a 2 flute end mill do the same job? I was using a 4 flute mill, but wouldn't a 2 flute mill generate half the heat of a 4 flute? Just trying to see the difference between porting tool and endmill.
    But I can't even find a definition of a porting tool that would fit this kind of application. I see some photos on the web, but not sure about what these tools look like if I want to order one.
    As far as doing the OD, I was thinking of using a form tool. I am not sure if that is a good solution, because it would need to move across. Actually, I designed and made a tool that would do both OD profile and also cut the part off.
    But to run these, the the type of machine is important, particularly to align the OD and ID tools, otherwise they may come in contact. Not a desirable occurrence.
    Now, when you're speaking of the roller, you mean the roller need not be the full ID diameter, but will come in contact with the part on the opposite side of the OD tool? Would it still need to be profiled to account for the 2 diameters? Would have to have some sort of bearings inside, no?
    Are there any cnc lathes that can run 2 tools at the same time? If there are, they may be quite difficult to find I believe. What other types of machines can run a similar setup?
    Last edited by semionb; 01-03-2018 at 04:34 PM.


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