Bernard EC D1-4 lever collet chuck question help
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    Default Bernard EC D1-4 lever collet chuck question help

    I had some time at work this morning to clean up this old collet chuck and make a rack for the collets. I could not find any markings on it but the collets are the EC and go up to 1 1/2". The 12 collets are in great shape but the chuck needs a little help.
    Looks like there is a missing spring and plunger in the main body of the chuck. Attached is photo of the empty hole. Also there are two female keyways in the one part but only one key in the other part. What is the other keyway for if anything? I don't have a parts break down or manual for this, are there any on the web?
    Any help with the missing parts would be great

    Thanks
    Andy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_5042.jpg   img_5043.jpg   img_5044.jpg  

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    Burnerd (this is the correct spelling) marked the front cap of their multi size collet chucks so lightly that they could be read when new, but not after much actual use. Sometimes you can see the mark if you hold the light just right.

    The chuck model is LC for lever chuck and 15 for the maximum capacity: LC15.

    I don't know if they still make those chucks, but you could call PBA (Pratt Burnerd America) in Kalamazoo, MI and ask about a parts list or instructions.

    Read post #9 here for a lead to another owner of a similar chuck.
    L0 to L00 Adapter ??

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy St View Post
    I had some time at work this morning to clean up this old collet chuck and make a rack for the collets. I could not find any markings on it but the collets are the EC and go up to 1 1/2". The 12 collets are in great shape but the chuck needs a little help.
    Looks like there is a missing spring and plunger in the main body of the chuck. Attached is photo of the empty hole. Also there are two female keyways in the one part but only one key in the other part. What is the other keyway for if anything? I don't have a parts break down or manual for this, are there any on the web?
    Any help with the missing parts would be great

    Thanks
    Andy
    There's a collet size chart on their website. Mine is also a lever-closer with a used, but complete set of collets. EC1 or EC2 are they?

    Most common nose now is geared-key operated rather than lever. Much lighter and smaller, less mass hanging forward.

    There are also a couple of threads on PM of the older type, one a rebuild IIRC. The holes are for bearing-balls, spring-backed.

    As to the keyway? ISTR that once the rebuild progresses, the sleeve needs to be adjusted by rotation on the fine screw threads. I could be wrong, but I thot that raised a need for a keyway in the new "sweet spot" for lever action to clamp and release cleanly.

    Mine is overdue for refurb, but I have plenty of other collet sytems in good working order so it may be another year or three.

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    Thanks Larry
    I think my poor spelling might have caused a bad Google search before my post here. The spring and plunger that I'm looking for are not shown on the drawing for the chuck. Maybe that hole was used in manufacturing? It looks like I have all of the parts on the drawing. I might order a new set of ball bearings before I put it back together. Looking at it again here at work I think the other key way is just there to give you a second location for the ball "race".
    I'll post some more photos later that might help others.

    Andy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails burnerd-lc-type-collet-chucks_zps8fkjrpwe.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy St View Post
    Thanks Larry
    I think my poor spelling might have caused a bad Google search before my post here. The spring and plunger that I'm looking for are not shown on the drawing for the chuck. Maybe that hole was used in manufacturing? It looks like I have all of the parts on the drawing. I might order a new set of ball bearings before I put it back together. Looking at it again here at work I think the other key way is just there to give you a second location for the ball "race".
    I'll post some more photos later that might help others.

    Andy
    I'd LOVE to have the link to where I can get a high-grade copy of that drawing that I can REALLY "zoom" in on!

    Meanwhile . .memory may be faulty, but ISTR a rebuild "could" if not also "must" involve upsizing the balls to compensate for wear of the parts they impinged upon? You/I/We should research that before just ordering OEM sizes?

    I need to dig for those older threads...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy St View Post
    Any help with the missing parts would be great
    I have that chuck with an L0 back (IIRC, might be an L00). It's a pita to assemble with those damn balls slipping out all over but I could take it apart and see if there's something in there if you need it.

    I'm still looking for the chuck in a D1-3 back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    I have that chuck with an L0 back (IIRC, might be an L00). It's a pita to assemble with those damn balls slipping out all over but I could take it apart and see if there's something in there if you need it.

    I'm still looking for the chuck in a D1-3 back.
    Adhesive'ish grease for the balls plus a Mylar or shim-foil slip-wrap yah can withdraw as you go.

    AFAIK D1-3 was hardly ever more than a rumour, would be a veritable Unicorn to find. My one is on D1-4.

    I bought a thicker NOS Bison forged-steel D1-3 plate with the adjust-tru "boss", "Plan A" that of turning the short taper snout into that boss ++, then back-bolting into the sockets of removed camlock pins.

    "Plan B" devolved to is to mount it to the more recently acquired and larger Cazeneuve HBX-360 instead. That one is still on far scantier rations of nose-art than the "overblessed" 10EE's are and has ten inches more long-axis daylight.

    The P-B rig does eat a fair chunk of that daylight, not always welcome on a 10 X 20 10EE.

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    My 2015 Pratt Burnerd America catalogue shows the KC-15 and KC-25 chucks available, described as "Precision manufactured to fit types A, D and L spindles and adapter recess." The LC model is not listed. I don't know when it was discontinued; it is shown in my 1998 PBA catalogue.

    In 2009 I bought a new KC-15 chuck, ordering the model listed to fit the D1-3" spindle nose. I received the chuck assembled with a separate D1-3" backplate.

    I have a rather earlier catalogue, probably mid- to late 1970's. Its illustrations show both the LC and KC chucks were available as "true" direct mounts rather than using a separate backplate to fit types A, D and L spindles (including the D1-3" for the LC- and KC-15). Plain back was also available.
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    My 2015 Pratt Burnerd America catalogue shows the KC-15 and KC-25 chucks available, described as "Precision manufactured to fit types A, D and L spindles and adapter recess." The LC model is not listed. I don't know when it was discontinued; it is shown in my 1998 PBA catalogue.

    In 2009 I bought a new KC-15 chuck, ordering the model listed to fit the D1-3" spindle nose. I received the chuck assembled with a separate D1-3" backplate.

    I have a rather earlier catalogue, probably mid- to late 1970's. Its illustrations show both the LC and KC chucks were available as "true" direct mounts rather than using a separate backplate to fit types A, D and L spindles (including the D1-3" for the LC- and KC-15). Plain back was also available.
    David
    Well there's the very rub. D1-3 may exist, but I've never seen one come on the market. Not that many Burnerds ever DO, anyway. Those as have them tend to KEEP theirs! Very good collet system.

    My particular "LC" IS an "integral" or "true" direct-mount D1-4.

    It is a "non-trivial exercise" to DIY that whole aft-end. Hence the stick-out penalty to ADD a D1-3 adapter-kludge and the pref to kludge it onto the Cazeneuve-weird but at least larger spindle nose instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    I have that chuck with an L0 back (IIRC, might be an L00). It's a pita to assemble with those damn balls slipping out all over but I could take it apart and see if there's something in there if you need it.

    I'm still looking for the chuck in a D1-3 back.
    Thanks rke[pler
    I wouldn't mind getting a D1-3 for this size collets either.

    I think with the help of that drawing and a better look on my part I have everything sorted out. I have all the parts in the drawing and nothing else.

    I ordered the ball bearings (19/32")and some of the pointed set screws(for the collets)#6-32 1/8" long from McMaster.

    There was a question about part #18 on another forum that I am not a member of. I will give some info here on that part as it might get back to them.
    Part #18 on the drawing is a small brass dovetail shaped segment of the cap threads. That part is used as a lock for the cap when tightened down with the set screw on the front of the cap. I don't think it is used on the smaller size caps. On the drawing in my opinion it is placed in a location that makes it confusing and it is up against one of the ball bearings distorting the image.

    Thanks
    Andy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_5046.jpg  

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    Thanks for that information

    old_dave

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Well there's the very rub. D1-3 may exist, but I've never seen one come on the market. Not that many Burnerds ever DO, anyway. Those as have them tend to KEEP theirs! Very good collet system.
    Not unicorn rare in their native, UK, habitat. A D1-3 native EC12 one on E-Bay UK right now. Start bid £375, auction ends on 31 st December. But that's dealer level price tag. On t'Bay I'd expect to see a complete chuck and collet set for similar money. Probably at least a couple will surface sometime in the next year.

    Agree on the excellence of the Burnerd system but having nickel and dimed my way up to a full set of 5C both metric and imperial changing makes little economic sense. Would need D1-4 for the Smart & Brown and D1-5 for the Pratt & Whiney too. If you think D1-3 native is rare, well D1-5 is totally non-existent.

    Clive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive603 View Post
    Not unicorn rare in their native, UK, habitat. A D1-3 native EC12 one on E-Bay UK right now. Start bid £375, auction ends on 31 st December. But that's dealer level price tag. On t'Bay I'd expect to see a complete chuck and collet set for similar money. Probably at least a couple will surface sometime in the next year.

    Agree on the excellence of the Burnerd system but having nickel and dimed my way up to a full set of 5C both metric and imperial changing makes little economic sense. Would need D1-4 for the Smart & Brown and D1-5 for the Pratt & Whiney too. If you think D1-3 native is rare, well D1-5 is totally non-existent.

    Clive
    Well I have the 5C "covered", too, but actually adopted it more for cheap and easy access to hex, square, internal expanding, external step and pot chucks than for plain-old rounds.

    I already had ER-40 and ER-20 to cover round goods. Slow, but very good grip and TIR. Also Rubberflex 9XX and 2J spring collets.

    2J are much nicer to use than 5C. AFAICS, that's partly due to 4-way split instead of 3-way.

    The EC12 is the best of the lot for "most" things, is faster than Rubberflex, and does hex inherently also.

    There are a few things where the concentrated pressure of the blades is unwelcome, but only a few.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    AFAIK D1-3 was hardly ever more than a rumour, would be a veritable Unicorn to find. My one is on D1-4.
    Rubbish. I have one, direct-mount not via backplate, for my Chipmaster lathe. I've seen a couple others come up for sale over the years.

    I have a spare P-B L-00 direct mount I keep thinking of modifying to mount on a D1-6 nose but so far, too much hassle for return.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Rubbish. I have one, direct-mount not via backplate, for my Chipmaster lathe. I've seen a couple others come up for sale over the years.

    I have a spare P-B L-00 direct mount I keep thinking of modifying to mount on a D1-6 nose but so far, too much hassle for return.

    PDW
    Still a Unicorn! You have to know how hard these are to find.

    Too few lathes used D1-3 that needed that good (and costly) of a collet system, or could justify it, here in the "lower 48".

    And those who HAVE one don't want to let it go!


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Still a Unicorn! You have to know how hard these are to find.

    Too few lathes used D1-3 that needed that good (and costly) of a collet system, or could justify it, here in the "lower 48".

    And those who HAVE one don't want to let it go!


    Um. Nope. Colchester Chipmaster and CVA immediately spring to mind as two lathes with D1-3 spindles well up to needing the Burnerd collets system. Found with plenty of other machines too.

    Despite the cost Burnerd sets seem to have been very popular in the UK. Full set in the tin box with the Harrison L in our local "one man and a lathe" section workshop at (then) RARDE Fort Halstead. Would be unsurprised to discover that maybe half the smaller lathes on site had a set. Certainly all the local section shops did so that maybe 20, prolly another 10 or 15 in the three main shops back then too. Yet to meet anyone on the pro machining side of things who worked in place that didn't have at least one lot lurking around. Especially toolroom types.

    I think its up to 4 collet sets and 3 chucks on E-Bay UK right now!

    Common chuck backplates seem to be L00, L0 and D1-3. D1-4 not so common and used to carry a premium price tag on t'Bay. One reason why I sometimes thought that perhaps I should have grabbed the CVA rather than the Smart & Brown 1024 when I replaced my Heavy 10 is that the CVA D1-3 nose would have made finding a Burnerd set easier. But the 1024 is mechanically simpler and the 5C native spindle has its attractions so, on balance probably right choice but grass is always greener in next doors' field.

    Clive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive603 View Post
    seem to have been very popular in the UK.
    "Unicorn" still-yet, "globally", on D1-3.

    Simply put, not all of us are IN the UK. And yes, thanks to this thread I have been "watching".
    I'm not much "into" auctions, though. Atrophied gambler-muscles? BIN price and/or "make offer" usually.

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    I have one that was originally fitted to a Colchester Bantam and to use it on my Colchester Master I had to make a 3 to 4 inch adaptor.

    d1-3-d1-4-adaptor.jpgd1-4-3-spindle-nose.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by LexD View Post
    I have one that was originally fitted to a Colchester Bantam and to use it on my Colchester Master I had to make a 3 to 4 inch adaptor.

    d1-3-d1-4-adaptor.jpgd1-4-3-spindle-nose.jpg
    Too bad we could not have just swapped - My D1-4 for your D1-3!

    That said, very useful adapter in general, as you've preserved the full functionality, so "any" D1-3 goods can be mounted to "any" D1-4 host

    My plan was to fab a semi-permanent reverse. D1-3 host to dedicated D1-4, using three back-bolted fasteners into the camlock pin threads, no camlock pins OR locks that side, and no depth needed to provide for them.

    And then I bought the Cazeneuve..


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    I was given a Colchester Master 2500 lathe along with a beautiful Pratt-Burnerd LC15 lever collet holder made in England20210425_123201.jpg (see photo)to fit the lathe spindle with 12 Multisize Collets (most of them still in their original unopened packaging). I now have a job which needs collets and have been trying to work out how to use the kit. I have a specsheet which says that 'a simple lever action operates the collet instantly while the machine spindle is in motion'. I thought this meant that the collet would stop rotating when the lever was pushed to one side but with my kit the collet rotates with the spindle of the lathe whatever the position of the lever.
    Can anyone advise me what I am doing wrong? I have emailed Pratt-Burnerd in Kalamazoo Missouri but have no reply yet.


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