Best adhesive for gluing wood to metal??
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    Default Best adhesive for gluing wood to metal??

    Wondering what the best adhesive is for gluing wood veneers to brass or steel? Has to be a thin, permanent, and rigid glue line. And it would be nice if it isn't extremely expensive or hard to find.

    This is for banjo parts, will be lacquer or oil finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richard newman View Post
    Wondering what the best adhesive is for gluing wood veneers to brass or steel? Has to be a thin, permanent, and rigid glue line. And it would be nice if it isn't extremely expensive or hard to find.

    This is for banjo parts, will be lacquer or oil finish.
    .
    go to boat store and you can get epoxy. it comes in many types with fillers that can be added if needed.

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    I would say the same adhesive used for gluing Formica on countertops. It’s just a spray on both sides deal and you can’t move it once in place

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    Quote Originally Posted by richard newman View Post
    Wondering what the best adhesive is for gluing wood veneers to brass or steel? Has to be a thin, permanent, and rigid glue line. And it would be nice if it isn't extremely expensive or hard to find.

    This is for banjo parts, will be lacquer or oil finish.
    I have used hot hide glue for gluing veneer to metal. I brushed glue on the metal, let it cool and place veneer on metal. Then heat the veneer with a heat gun and roll the veneer with a laminate roller or even a wall paper roller if the work is small. Roll from the center out each way while applying heat. After it cools the bond is good and will not creep.
    If you do not have this glue , try a package of gelatin in hot water. Use less water than the package says. Gelatin is a weak hide glue. Try it on scrap first as I have heard of this but not tried it myself.
    The best thing about hot hide glue is it is reversible. If you position the veneer wrong , heat the veneer and adjust it to suit.

    mike

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    I wondered at reading your first sentence what would require glueing wood to metal and especially brass. This is fascinating in that it involves banjos. Could you provide examples or pictures describing where this needs to be done in your processes? It would be very interesting.

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    In my opinion the only way to get a good metal to wood adhesion is mostly a mechanical bond [ roughen the heck out of the metal surface to give glue something to tooth into ]. Wood has a size change with moisture
    Metal and wood are not likely have any were near the same coefficient on thermal expansion
    may you luck be with you.

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    The hardware store glue will fail after a few years

    G flex or other West systems is good.
    It's made to last decades.

    good prep, blasted and gloves for oil free handling

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    What do the professional banjo builder use ?

    I think you really, really don't want a failure ?
    Roy Clark & Buck Trent Dueling Banjos - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven-Canada View Post
    The hardware store glue will fail after a few years



    G flex or other West systems is good.
    It's made to last decades.

    good prep, blasted and gloves for oil free handling

    I second Gflex!

    West systems publishes good easy to read data on how to properly use epoxy. They mention working epoxy into the metal with a wire brush for good adhesion.
    The big key to epoxying wood is to let it soak into the wood and keep wetting it until full penetration is reached.

    The gflex is great as is it somewhat flexible, brittle glue cracks when bonding flexible materials such as wood or metal or the combination of both.
    I use it often for metal to metal bonds as well.

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    The most success I’ve had with bonding metal to wood is with Roo Glue:
    Superior Bonding Woodworking Glues | Roo Glue(R) : Roo Glue(R)

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    I have had good success with polyurethane glue, veneer over steel.
    I did some large areas for a table base, not sure about rigidity though, it might creep but it bonded very well.
    I use a german brand not gorilla glue.

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    We knifemakers spend a lot of time on this, and have done tons of tests with various non-metal adhesions to steel, and other metals.

    The short answer: West Systems G-Flex, Acraglas, or Loctite Speedbonder 324/326, depending on application. These are by far, the best adhesives on the market, without getting into highly specialized app specific adhesives that there's little to no public info on.

    If your parts will be subject to a lot of flex or material movement, G-Flex may work best.

    Acraglas is the primary adhesive used by professional high end gunsmiths for bedding rifle barrels in wood stocks. It's tougher than G-Flex in rigid applications.

    Both Acraglas and G-Flex are two part epoxies, and 24 hour cure times. As a general rule, the longer the cure time, the stronger the glue. 5 minute epoxies for example, are all universally low strength and really not suitable for long term, critical bonding.

    Loctite Speedbonder is an acrylic anaerobic adhesive, which cures in the lack of oxygen, and it's the only acrylic adhesive I'm aware of with the strength and heat tolerance of epoxies. The advantage of these, are that 324 and 326, have 1 minute or 5 minute fixture times with much faster cure rates than the equivalent strength 24 hour cure epoxies, and the anaerobic nature, means that extra adhesive that squirts out the joint, doesn't cure hard if not removed promptly.

    G-flex and Acraglas require some diligence if you're joining finished parts, as they may continue to ooze out small quantities of adhesive from the joint as the curing progresses, which isn't an issue if you have room to go back and sand/grind the joint further, but is a concern if they're completely finished parts and the last step is gluing. Cured epoxy is very difficult to remove without cutting or abrading, and can be destructive to wood especially when attempting such.

    The Loctite adhesives are single part, with an "activator" or "primer" that is brushed or sprayed on one or both parts before hand, which causes the fixture and cure times to line up with the stated numbers, and requires slightly different technique than epoxy.

    All of these, material prep is extremely critical. Clean solvent clean up before gluing, and proper surface finish (coarse finishes to the level acceptable that wont show gaps or lines at a joint, are better, and help especially where adhesives all have weakness, in peel), and for critical bonds, relief cuts that allow better adhesion where you can hide them, are better.


    Personally, I've gravitated toward the Loctite adhesives for my work (high end pocket knives, slipjoints primarily), but I previously used both Acraglas and G-Flex with good results, joining steel and other metals to wood, ivories, phenolics, bone, horn, etc.

    All that being said, it's always advantageous to add a mechanical fastener when possible, and it almost always is. Blind or hidden pins (rivets) that don't show on the presentation faces are an option, or domed pins of a different material that have hand formed heads which can show hammer marks or be polished perfectly round, are a great option, that not only add strength, but character and value to the work, are worth considering.

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    Years ago, when I was in college, I had a pair of skis that were wood core with an aluminum skin on top and they delaminated. I called 3M and had them determine which epoxy was best for the application. It is too long ago to remember what exact epoxy it was but I followed their recommendation and those skis lasted me a couple of years until I could afford new ones. So ask the adhesive reps.

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    Thanks for the advice. I've used West epoxies in the past with good luck, just wondering what others use, and what new stuff might be out there.

    The Loctite Speedbonder sounds interesting. I have West epoxy on hand, but might give it a try.

    These would be banjo parts that are always made of metal, thinking of facing them with veneers to get a different look. Just looking for more options in my design palette.

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    Here is the project where I used polyurethane glue to bond the veneer to solid steel.
    The steel was sandblasted and hand sanded to insure a flat smooth surface.
    I made my own rubber roller to apply the glue and it went on easily and bonded very well. Virtually no bleed through and no effect on finishing.
    All in all it was a pleasant experience, no mixing or strong odours and a very fast cure time.
    If you were wondering that is amboyna veneer, one of the rarest and most expensive veneers in the world.

    Michael
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 3cf74bf2-c7c3-4e03-9854-3c3e70ac7446.jpg   abe2502f-069e-4f4b-b15f-4128b6bc99d2.jpg  

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    That is a very nice looking piece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richard newman View Post
    These would be banjo parts that are always made of metal, thinking of facing them with veneers to get a different look. Just looking for more options in my design palette.
    No need of veneers. You want a "V", have a look at "vermeil". Or selective plating.. or etching... or engraving... or colour-case-hardening, or "Rainbow" Titanium, or TiN coating.. or WEIRD anodizings..or ..??.. more ways to make metals look "unique" than just a few.

    And none of those have a glue-line, nor risk of failure over thermal differentials.

    SOME.. can be tougher than cut-nails, add superior wear resistance AND corrosion resistance.

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    Someone above said gelatin is a weak hide glue. That might depend upon how you mix it. Fact is that a major manufacturer (Lyon and Healy)has been using gelatin glue forever on their harps. They certainly are a high stress instrumemt.They make the damnedest nearly invisible joints you've ever seen on natural finished hard maple. Certainly a difficult wood to make those joints on.


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