Best manual lathe for the size?

asid61 · Sep 19, 2018

I'm looking to get a quality metal lathe for a high school robotics team I mentor. All of what we do is going to be aluminum, as the shop teacher has a medical condition and doesn't want steel cut in the shop in case he has to get an MRI.
On top of that, most of what we do is 1/2" diameter aluminum hex stock, although if there is a need we might need to face an occasional gear up to (gasp) 4" in diameter. We need to be able to hold tolerance/repeatability of .0003" on diameters without spending undue effort on setup, as we have to handle very low turnaround times on each part. Almost everything we make is 2-4 offs.
Theoretically we could get by on a poor-quality imported lathe, but we have a budget of $6k for this. Inside that I have to get a lathe, QCTP, and very basic cutting tools, as well as a DRO and 5C collet closer.
Is there a particularly good brand/model for heavy, small-medium size lathes? I'm looking out for a Hardinge HLV or TFB from a local used machinery dealer, but apart from that I have no clue what's good. I've heard the larger Grizzly lathes are ok, but given that we have a pretty good budget for this, I want to spend the money on a tool that lasts.

EDIT: I should also mention, we aren't made of space. Something as large as a 1330 is pushing it, which is why a Hardinge is on my list- it's reasonably small.

thermite · Sep 20, 2018

asid61 said:
I'm looking to get a quality metal lathe for a high school robotics team I mentor. All of what we do is going to be aluminum, as the shop teacher has a medical condition and doesn't want steel cut in the shop in case he has to get an MRI.
On top of that, most of what we do is 1/2" diameter aluminum hex stock, although if there is a need we might need to face an occasional gear up to (gasp) 4" in diameter. We need to be able to hold tolerance/repeatability of .0003" on diameters without spending undue effort on setup, as we have to handle very low turnaround times on each part. Almost everything we make is 2-4 offs.
Theoretically we could get by on a poor-quality imported lathe, but we have a budget of $6k for this. Inside that I have to get a lathe, QCTP, and very basic cutting tools, as well as a DRO and 5C collet closer.
Is there a particularly good brand/model for heavy, small-medium size lathes? I'm looking out for a Hardinge HLV or TFB from a local used machinery dealer, but apart from that I have no clue what's good. I've heard the larger Grizzly lathes are ok, but given that we have a pretty good budget for this, I want to spend the money on a tool that lasts.

EDIT: I should also mention, we aren't made of space. Something as large as a 1330 is pushing it, which is why a Hardinge is on my list- it's reasonably small.

Lot of contradictions built in, there. "No real money, actually" among them. Nor the controlled temp or decent CNC MC to hold 3-tenths repeatability on shiney word. A new junk lathe, or worn-out veteran, with no experience, no effort permitted, rather?

Play with yerself over the hand yer dealt if you think it matters.

Up to me, I'd just take a day-off to go f**k myself as a change from the school doing it to me - then go find a real job or a Mentorship not constructed out of blockades.

"Aluminium only in case he needs..?". Maybe find that poor soul some other job, too, yah?

That "Medical Condition" wants crazy glue instead of steel bolts, and ceramic bearings, too? Sure it ain't just head-in-rectal-defilade as to a change of classes he ought to be teaching with less risk?

Any Hardinge you are likely to find in that budget is as reasonably WORN OUT as it is reasonably small, too! All a Grisely is going to do is ship already out-of-spec from the factory so you don't have to waste any time or use-up any metal to reach the worn-out state of affairs.

You want to do some good?
Roll the dice.

Write up a PROPER plan as to what you really need for those students to learn something USEFUL.

Then price it.

Then "show time". Find us the money. Forget about it. Binary choice. No second-place winner.

HuFlungDung · Sep 20, 2018

Doesn't want to cut steel in case he needs an MRI? WTF condition is that? I might need an MRI sometime, too. Does he eat with plastic fork and spoon, too?

thermite · Sep 20, 2018

HuFlungDung said:
Doesn't want to cut steel in case he needs an MRI? WTF condition is that? I might need an MRI sometime, too. Does he eat with plastic fork and spoon, too?

Trace Iron will mess-up paint adhesion to shiney-wood. Makes his tinfoil hat look ugly.

Or might expose him as an outright FRAUD as a "shop instructor"?

Wasn't a non-Radioactive metal ever made Dave Chirdon could not show us how to work.

Exciting day he got us a slug of pure Zirconium donated by Westinghouse Nuclear, briefed me, tasked yrs truly with turning it whilst he explained the Zippo lighter on steroids doins to the peanut gallery.

Suburban Pittsburgh, Bridgeville, Canonsburg, Carnegie? Bet he scrounged 6 large a year worth of donations off begging anyone from shop floor to Chairman of US Steel for donated drops, training films, plant tours, you name it - to keep those classes going. Mind, some of them were our own parents...

steve-l · Sep 20, 2018

Getting a lathe smaller than 13x40 makes no sense, so don't waste your money. Maybe you don't want accessories at the moment, but you will in the future. Getting a lathe without a 3 jaw, 4 jaw, steady rest, travel rest and hopefully a taper attachment also makes no sense. So the lathe should host a D1-4 spindle because chucks and other spindle tools are common and inexpensive. Lastly, your $6k will not cover the bill new, but it will used and you have no need of new for your intended purpose.

thermite · Sep 20, 2018

A professionally rebuilt Hardinge could make a lot of sense with no more than 4 (or even 8) inch tasking and lots of hex as fits a 5C.

Problem is, he needs a one in front of his budget number, plus mayhap doubling even that to get there.

And then? Any serious robotics work also wants a mill. Decent one. Not a mill-drill.

If I could have but the one? I'd take the mill. Horizontal with add-on vertical, combo if possible.

Short / medium goods, tee-lathe it and continue the march. Lathe don't mill anywhere near as well as a horizontal mill can do turning.

jumpinjimmy447 · Sep 20, 2018

repeatability of 3 tenths , low turnaround time , low cost , an the MRI thing ? WOW ! not asking much are we ?

hobbyman · Sep 20, 2018

I am dating myself but 60 years ago an "Industrial Arts" teacher had to have a trade in order to qualify for entrance into the teacher ed program that led to a degree. The fear of steel because of a pending MRI hints of a lack of any industrial knowledge.
It bothers me that programs want to make some glorified project such as a robot when the student really needs to learn to use a file and hacksaw first. Turning to 0.0003 tolerance is not going to happen until a student has hundreds of hours on a manual lathe. After a demonstration and someone setting up the tool bit a high school student will be fortunate to get to plus or minus 0.001 the first time. I doubt that your courses last even a single hundred hours.
Or you could hire a machinist to make the parts and let the students watch which I am sure happens more often than we know when a high precision assembly is produced in a high school shop.
As for choosing a lathe I would contact other school programs and tour their shops to get ideas on how to stretch your dollar.

thermite · Sep 20, 2018

jumpinjimmy447 said:
repeatability of 3 tenths , low turnaround time , low cost , an the MRI thing ? WOW ! not asking much are we ?

Yah,really. Not talking budget for no brand-new Okuma CNC, here, are we?

Wasn't overly stressed to split a thou. Once. Each tedious go, older all-manual machines no longer in the best of shape. And tedious it could damned well be.

But that's FIVE tenths. Not Three.

And now.. you want repeatability, tight turnaround time, "no special setup"?

Got just the ticket for a onesie to foursie shop, low/no training or experience.

A "teach in" quasi-CNC lathe. It can even REMEMBER 99 such parts:

CAZENEUVE - Optica Siemens English - YouTube

Now price one. Or any of its several competitors, even superiors.

$6,000 goes just how far?

guest · Sep 20, 2018

.0003" is a pipe dream. 6K is enough to accessorize the machine with a decent DRO, toolpost, chucks. and collet closer though.

I have several friends in the medical profession, and they have told me that if I ever need an MRI, that I should first get an X-ray of the area. The reason being if you have any steel chips under the skin, an MRI can get them moving around. In theory you could get them cutting something you don't want cut. They tell me to make sure the physician knows I am a machinist.

Sounds like an overabundance of caution to me, but it's not my field. Just having steel in the shop, or other people making parts from steel is no risk.

dsergison · Sep 20, 2018

asid61 said:
I'm looking to get a quality metal lathe for a high school robotics team I mentor. All of what we do is going to be aluminum, as the shop teacher has a medical condition and doesn't want steel cut in the shop in case he has to get an MRI.
On top of that, most of what we do is 1/2" diameter aluminum hex stock, although if there is a need we might need to face an occasional gear up to (gasp) 4" in diameter. We need to be able to hold tolerance/repeatability of .0003" on diameters without spending undue effort on setup, as we have to handle very low turnaround times on each part. Almost everything we make is 2-4 offs.
Theoretically we could get by on a poor-quality imported lathe, but we have a budget of $6k for this. Inside that I have to get a lathe, QCTP, and very basic cutting tools, as well as a DRO and 5C collet closer.
Is there a particularly good brand/model for heavy, small-medium size lathes? I'm looking out for a Hardinge HLV or TFB from a local used machinery dealer, but apart from that I have no clue what's good. I've heard the larger Grizzly lathes are ok, but given that we have a pretty good budget for this, I want to spend the money on a tool that lasts.

EDIT: I should also mention, we aren't made of space. Something as large as a 1330 is pushing it, which is why a Hardinge is on my list- it's reasonably small.

I'm the manufacturing mentor for #1756 Argos
Happy to share a whole list of what we find most important.

You don't need to "HOLD" .0003" on anything FRC related. You might want to sneak up on a bearing or press fit occasionally. That is not the same thing as having a machine that you can dial in a diameter and have it just be within .0003"

The MRI risk is laughable but you can't easily argue with the school teacher when your using his room. I have the opposite problem. Our welding shop teacher is a hoarder. We have to walk over piles of steel. It's not safe.

A 13" swing is a little oversize for robotics work also. A not worn out 10x30 or 10x24 will do fine. 5c collets in the spindle would be nice. Ours takes 3c, it's a Clausing 4900. and a DRO. And some tooling.

and if you don't already have it a Morse Metal Devil or equivalent carbide metal chop saw.

and a 1-1/8" annular cutter for bearing holes.

and a 1/2" hex broach and an arbor press to push it. It is not easy to find an arbor press with that much stroke but it's very useful. I made one from an old ball screw.

A mill as long as your shopping

etc...

what team are you?

Mr-Mike · Sep 20, 2018

$6K can get a very decent used lathe and leave some for tooling/accessories. Find the nicest non-import +1500lbs lathe that will fit the space.

Terry Keeley · Sep 20, 2018

I really, really like my Emco Super 11 which would be in your budget. It's 11" X 26" tho. Emco Maximat Super 11 Lathe

Or you could go for the bigger V13: Emco Maximat V13 & Voest DA16 Lathe

Problem is that either will be insulted if you don't cut ANY steel on them.

thermite · Sep 20, 2018

Terry Keeley said:
Problem is that either will be insulted if you don't cut ANY steel on them.

LOL! Not an issue HERE! Shiney wood is cut all the time. In my woodworking area. AND NOT in the machine shop area. Stuff cuts like cheese on all-carbide woodchopping tools.

Machine-tool side runs alloys of Iron or Copper. No carbides that side of the wall, either, save those on micrometer anvils and the like.

My shop. My rules, dammit!

PeteM · Sep 20, 2018

It's apparently the shop teacher, not the robotics team mentor that doesn't want to cut steel. Let's cut him a break. Besides, there's good reason to make most of the mechanical bits in a robot out of aluminum.

To the OP -- getting a decent lathe with basic equipment for $6000 should be easy. List some alternatives and people here can help you sort them out. You'll want to learn how to check out a used lathe yourself for accuracy.

It's the notion of kids (or even that ferric-challenged shop teacher) holding tolerances in a .0003" band that's a problem. Unless you find someone kindly disposed to your program, a $6000 HLV-H or Monarch 10ee is likely to be pretty worn and even a new one would take some skill to hit those tolerances. There's built up aluminum on cutting edges, thermal expansion, all sorts of things to trap the unwary. Add in the wear on ways, screws, and gibs or the inaccuracies and lack of rigidity built right into cheaper new lathes and the challenge increases.

There's probably a workaround to those hoped-for +/- .00015" finish cuts -- perhaps polishing to final fit.

Be curious to know what parts in a high school robot are designed to need that precision? I'd guess that .001" would do for most everything and even bearing fits could be worked around? If you can open up the tolerance, that opens up a lot more lathes for consideration.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Sep 20, 2018

I've had several MRI scans and I was asked if I had any metal splinters still in my body. I said " Are you serious, what engineer walks around with splinters in his hands etc, you dig them out as soon as you can ".

I never had any problems with the MRI scans.

Regards Tyrone.

alskdjfhg · Sep 20, 2018

I'm on the UH FSAE team, suspension team lead and their "manufacturing chair". What in the world are they going to be doing to need to work to .0003? Can you measure that tight?

I'm telling everyone on the FSAE team if they tolerance anything on this car tighter than .0005, something is wrong. They had bearing tolerances listed as -0 +5 microns last year.......

I'm no expert, but last week at work I was turning a little hydraulic cylinder in a Victor 1770 lathe. 1" dia, 12" long, I turned it to a few tenths under size and got the taper to about that, but that was with with good mikes, a rigid lathe, and working carefully.

thermite · Sep 20, 2018

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
I've had several MRI scans and I was asked if I had any metal splinters still in my body. I said " Are you serious, what engineer walks around with splinters in his hands etc, you dig them out as soon as you can ".

I never had any problems with the MRI scans.

Regards Tyrone.

They didn't make me take my Silver amalgam fillings outta my head, first-go, nor the gold inlays as had replaced those by the next go, either. And it WAS my noggin they were peeking at, given the injury.

Long and short of it is that the sensor, shielding, control, and analysis technology had improved by a long time ago, already.

They no longer NEED a magnetic field as could de-gauss a whole damned mine-sweeper hull nor boil yer ass from the inside-out off the jiggering about of Haemoglobin Iron in yer own "generally present, most places" red blood cells that are sore DIFFICULT to put aside some other place just for the scan!

Mind.. they HAVE such. More powerful than EVER.

But those are not what live-humans are subject to in hospital tests or even as-you-go real-time brain surgery.

Anyone cares, yah can read all about it on the 'net if it floats yer boat. Not a great deal of mystery left to it.

rklopp · Sep 20, 2018

I mentor FRC Team 100 the Wildhats in their shop, which doubles as the shop for the "engineering" classes at the high school. They have a barely tolerable Green Bear 13x40 lathe that does just fine for building a robot. I put a DRO on it, which helped tremendously. Plenty of teams have no lathe at all, so you don't need anything fancy, and 0.0003" accuracy is just not necessary. Parts for Team 100's robots also get made on a Monarch 10EE, a Colchester Chipmaster, and a CNC Wabeco training lathe running Mach3. They are all plenty adequate for the job. If I were in your shoes, I'd look for a used US, Euro, or Japanese machine that is not clapped out. Due to school purchasing system requirements, you may be stuck buying new, and you therefore may be stuck with Green Bear or similar stuff. Many company purchasing systems are the same way; it's hard to get a small, one-use vendor like a used machinery dealer approved, so it's easier to just buy a Jet lathe out of the Travers catalog.

thermite · Sep 20, 2018

rklopp said:
I mentor FRC Team 100 the Wildhats in their shop, which doubles as the shop for the "engineering" classes at the high school. They have a barely tolerable Green Bear 13x40 lathe that does just fine for building a robot. I put a DRO on it, which helped tremendously. Plenty of teams have no lathe at all, so you don't need anything fancy, and 0.0003" accuracy is just not necessary. Parts for Team 100's robots also get made on a Monarch 10EE, a Colchester Chipmaster, and a CNC Wabeco training lathe running Mach3. They are all plenty adequate for the job. If I were in your shoes, I'd look for a used US, Euro, or Japanese machine that is not clapped out. Due to school purchasing system requirements, you may be stuck buying new, and you therefore may be stuck with Green Bear or similar stuff. Many company purchasing systems are the same way; it's hard to get a small, one-use vendor like a used machinery dealer approved, so it's easier to just buy a Jet lathe out of the Travers catalog.

More than a few of the bean-counters in those be-you-a-rock-rat-crotch-rotsies are au fait with leasing, if properly packaged, though.

CAPEX has amortizations in any case. Annual budget and book look much the same. Lease can be structured as easier to shed if/as/when circumstances change.

Nuthin' to do with the goods or goods-vendor. Leases are a Finanster animal.

Lease you a battleship, corporate jet, fine motorcar, rubber ducky, pair of roller-blades, or a platoon of houseflies with equal ease.

Best manual lathe for the size?

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