Best value 5C collets ?

I'm going to buy a set of 5C collets. I did a search and didn't find any recent threads on the subject. I pretty much know that Hardinge collets are at the top of the quality chart but I can't really justify that much money in a collet set. I have way more wants than I got gots ! So , what is currently the best bang for the buck in collets? Is there someone out there making close to Hardinge quality for Chinese price ? New companies come along occasionally that haven't made a name yet that are producing great quality at rock bottom prices to gain market share and build a name. Does anyone know of any real bargains in 5C collets and not just cheap sh"t cheap ?

You get what you pay for, and when you don't spend on collets, you don't get any assurance of quality. Most everybody gets the external diameters and angles correct. The big questions are concentricity (axial) and runout (angular) of the ground center hole relative to the exterior.

I have bought any number of cheap Chinese collets and most have been satisfactory for my uses. But you cannot assume that shiny outsides mean anything about quality, and occasionally you get one that simply has to be thrown out as unusable. Like 0.002" (not 0.0002") run out at 1 or 2" from the collet face. For some jobs, especially complete turning from bar, even that gross an error isn't an issue. But if you are doing 2nd op work, or re-"chucking" a finished part, you need way better than that.

If you don't want to pay Hardinge prices and also don't want a quality crapshoot, you might look into Dunham (Lisle), Lyndex (Nikken), Royal or Maritool. Lyndex is fairly widely available from vendors, the others you may have to buy direct. I am not 100% sure that all of those brands make their own 5C collets, however.

Let me give a recent anecdote as an example. I bought a cheap E20M collet holder and M-cap wrench from a Chinese eBay seller. The holder itself was very nicely done, with good runout. The cap looked very nice (shiny), but the cast wrench did not fit the machined and ground cap in most positions. The problem was the milled slots in the cap, which were plunge milled with a slotting cutter and not deburred. After 15 minutes with some small pillar files, I had a cap where the wrench would seat properly in all 6 positions. So this purchase was not usable out of the box, but it was repairable. The grinding was good, but the machining was sub-par. A bad collet is not really recoverable unless you have an ID grinder, a set of diamond pins, and are prepared to regrind the collet to a larger size than marked.

Daveinjax said:

I'm going to buy a set of 5C collets. I did a search and didn't find any recent threads on the subject. I pretty much know that Hardinge collets are at the top of the quality chart but I can't really justify that much money in a collet set. I have way more wants than I got gots ! So , what is currently the best bang for the buck in collets? Is there someone out there making close to Hardinge quality for Chinese price ? New companies come along occasionally that haven't made a name yet that are producing great quality at rock bottom prices to gain market share and build a name. Does anyone know of any real bargains in 5C collets and not just cheap sh"t cheap ?

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They all "work". Better ones last longer, release faster and better, hold TIR better and resist abuse longer. If you do not already HAVE such, shall we presume your usage is slight?

5C have a narrow effective grip range. Very. "Abuse" most commonly is wrong-sizing, then forcing.

No sweat if you have consistent and standard STOCK to work. Big deal otherwise. Very.
Industrially, custom-ordered collets do a great deal more of the high-volume work than you may be aware of. Serious factories stocked SEVERAL off-size ones to accommodate variations in incoming stock. Much cheaper than buying tighter-spec stock - if even it could be had at all.

So if you do any serious work, it will be but a FEW sizes wanted, but more than one of each over time, and preferably of the best quality to be had. Hardinge, for the USA. Europe has some other options.

For 'sets'. I chose to start cheap, 'cover' the range I do not yet have much klew from which I'll need, do it three times on the common sizes. Eg: 1/32" set. 1/16" set. 1/8" set gives me 3 in the eighths, two in the sixteenths. Even a full 1/64ths" set nor a "half mm" set, do NOT cover all sizes without gaps. So one stashes "emergency" collets, too.

From experience "back in the day", MOST sizes in a "set" will but gather dust awaiting a size of stock you end up not even working with. It just won't be the same "not working with" size as the next Pilgrim.

Pity we cannot easily "pool" our collet sets..

For every .001 difference in chucked diameter, your z changes .003. This makes precision work hard when you are dealing with inconsistent material or machined diameters.

The biggest thing I hate about some Chinese collets is that they are not made to spring open beyond the nominal size. This is where Hardinge 5C collets really shine, along with their concentricity and cylindricality.

Maritool has decent collets.

Tool Holders, Collets and Machine Accessories - MariTool

Unfortunately, current and old Hardinge, old Royal, old South Bend, and old Crawford 5C collets are the only ones I have found to be properly sprung open so they don't drag on the work. It seems an easy thing to do during manufacture.

If money was tight I would find a small set of used collets. As Monarchist mentioned using all the sizes just doesnt happen all the time. Starting with a small set and adding as you need it can be an easy method to doing more with less in the beginning.

"Best Value" is a phrase that has a fuzzy meaning. It can mean one thing to one person and another thing to another. I would not just rely on a recommendation from anyone here. Their needs may be a lot different from yours.

I would do this:

1. Determine just what collets you need. Just some specific sized? A set by 16ths? A set by 32nds? 64ths? Custom sizes? Square, hex, emergency, etc?

2. Determine the specs. that you need. But don't overdo it: 0.0001" runout is going to cost a lot more then 0.001" will. And is wear going to be a problem (heavy production use)?

3. Determine a budget. This is best expressed as a range of prices that is acceptable.

4. Do the research. Look at the various brands (and non brands if you want). Make a list of the prices. Add the stated specifications of each brand. See if anything stands out by fitting both your list of needed collets, specs., and price range.

5. Talk to us about specific choices in that list. Or on other boards if Chinese/cheap imports.

6. Check out the sellers. Check out their return policies. Will they accept a return if the collet does not meet the published specs? Who pays return shipping charges?

7. Make a choice and order them. Be sure to pay with a CREDIT CARD. That gives you a second recourse if they do not meet specs. DO NOT USE A DEBIT CARD OR PAYPAL: CREDIT CARD ONLY!

8. When you get them, test them against the published specs. Be sure you are measuring the collets and not your collet holder. If they do not meet them, return them immediately and get a refund. Try another brand.

I have some import collets that were low priced. They do work and the runout is OK. But, that is no guarantee that another set from the same supplier will be. Take precautions.

Another choice is used collets from places like E-Bay. I also have some used ones and most of them are OK. But a few had to be replaced as they were damaged. Since I purchased them in a set, I just trashed the bad ones and replaced them with new (yes, Hardinge). So I have a good set at a good price.

rklopp said:

Unfortunately, current and old Hardinge, old Royal, old South Bend, and old Crawford 5C collets are the only ones I have found to be properly sprung open so they don't drag on the work. It seems an easy thing to do during manufacture.

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Should be "easy". But yes, the whole race classes as "spring" collets, and when they don't (spring), they are a PITA.

Dunno if "new" Royal goods are still worthy, but I don't see them much trying to sell on price advantage, so "maybe"?

Old Day Job so relied on off-size 3C to take advantage of cheaper Brass, Alpaca Metal, eventually Stainless incoming stock, they mostly made their own collets in-house. Usually a four-way split, rather than three-way as well. Faster setup on the mill, more easily "ganged" in batches than three-way, less fussy as to OD profile of the fingers.

Worked a treat, saved them a ton on materials, 1923 onward.

I just go and use a different race of workholding, meself. 5C are not at the top of my menu, anyway.

Thanks , I'm brand new to this and the use will be light so the durability probably won't be an issue but runout , poor finish , and poor grip is something that would be an issue. Only reason I'm asking on this professional board is I know you guys actually run the bejeezus out of tooling and should know and have a well earned opinion. I'd like to have a 64th set though 1" on hand for whatever comes up. I'm going to look for a steal of a deal on some used Hardinge collets since I have time. About half of the R8 collets I have are by Hardinge and they're far better than the non branded oddballs I have. I know you usually get what you pay for but there's always a chance and the stupid question is the one you didn't ask.

I have bought new hardinge collets and they're very nice. Also since your buying 5c they're not horribly expensive like any other collet . I've also used lyndex and they seem to work just as good. I just buy hardinge because the job will pay for the $35 collet and then I don't have to buy another (for awhile at least). Lyndex are $15 or so cheaper I think.

I bought a set of Lyndex collets 25 years ago and haven't seen any quality issues and about a third or more less the cost of the big names. I think I read here that they have gone down hill quality wise since then and are no longer made in Japan?
Also have a set that are Hardinge and did notice that stock is easier to put in them. Not an issue on my one off use but would be if I were using a bar feeder in production.
Dan

are there any runout classes for 5c like for er collets? i noticed the runout usually is not even specified.

I had good luck with Bison collets, but they were all 16c and most were purchased 10 years ago. They were made in Poland.

If you can't afford a high quality set, I would recommend just buying the size you need, when you need it, and only buy top of the line.
The Chinese crap isn't worth the space it takes up.

Most of the time in my business we bought Hardinge. On common sizes we also had a set of .003 over in 1/4,3/8,1/2, 5/8, 3/4 and one inch the aluminum and other round stock from the mill that was oversize.

For general rough use (welding, saw cutting, and ect) I bought a 1/64th set from one of the Chinese suppliers on a whim. Surprisingly, all but two were better than .0003 RO. When I set up my home shop after retiring I took another chance on a cheap set and they were about the same, a couple where bad and I replaced them. I've heard of some being too hard or having bad the draw threads but we never got any of those.

So, yep some had problems but mostly have worked out great. I don't regret buying them and a 1/64th complete set is a must have for a shop. You can always add better as needed along the way. Most of the time when bought another one we bought Hardinge high accuracy because we were doing something right up the limits.

"Value" is what happens when stupid people have too much money.

=)

Answer to the original question is:

Hardinge, new.

jim rozen said:

"Value" is what happens when stupid people have too much money.

=)

Answer to the original question is:

Hardinge, new.

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Not that hard to figure out, buy from your neighbors.

I have lost jobs and lots of work to china. The more that we buy from them the better they will get at taking our work.
A few years ago an American president was reminded that Chinese nukular weapons could easily hit Los Angeles by the Chinese president. What are you thinking about buying chinese when there is an local alternative?

If you think Hardinge is charging too much try making a collet for less.

rklopp said:

Unfortunately, current and old Hardinge, old Royal, old South Bend, and old Crawford 5C collets are the only ones I have found to be properly sprung open so they don't drag on the work. It seems an easy thing to do during manufacture.

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Not familiar with Crawford, but my list also includes Buck, News/Yuasa, RSB (South Bend with less runout and a longer nose), Willis Toledo (Germany), Sutton, SPI Germany.

If you have a friendly local dealer that'll let you peruse their used 5C collets, go buy a bunch at a time. If not, haunt eBay and buy a bunch at a time. Shipping costs money, ya know, though sometimes it can't be avoided.

And keep in mind you'll never be done buying, selling and trading 5C collets. (Anyone have old style Royals in 5/64, 25/64, 41/64, 15/16, 61/64, 63/64, 1-1/64, 1-1/32, 1-5/64, 1-3/32, 1-7/64, or 1-1/8?) Carry a card in your wallet with the sizes you need, go to the vendors at whatever shows you like (not Cats), ask the next time you go look at a machine, visit a shop, etc. It's a conversation starter and key to the club, a search in common.

It's what we do.

Most of my collets are from Hardinge.
Last year I bought a few from Shars to fill in some missing sizes in a secondary set. I worked at Hardinge from '77 to '82 in the collet department. I'm familiar with the inspection procedures Hardinge uses. The 5C collets from Shars cost aprox. $8.50 each. I checked them over, and they were at least as accurate as a Hardinge collet. Pretty impressive, really.

What the heck is a nukular weapon??