Wheel truing stand dilemma

Trying to build a wheel truing stand. I saw this dudes from off the internet ..https://i.imgur.com/Q6u4x7r.jpg
and really dug it. Its alot like the older cast stands for motorcycles or bicycles. I went and got some 1" rod and some 2" long coupling nuts, and even at 6 inches thru the nut its got some sag to it. This cant be how the ones like the old hd or Rowe stands are is it? Maybe it all tightens up when the cones push together on the bearings? I bought uncoated coarse thread rod cause i figured without the zinc coating it might be made to closer tolerances(no wobble/looseness) but this doesnt seem to be the case. Would fine thread all thread work better? Ideas?

^a portion of the end of the rod will be turned down to accept the centering cone

Scoobydude said:

Trying to build a wheel truing stand. I saw this dudes from off the internet ..https://i.imgur.com/Q6u4x7r.jpg
and really dug it. Its alot like the older cast stands for motorcycles or bicycles. I went and got some 1" rod and some 2" long coupling nuts, and even at 6 inches thru the nut its got some sag to it. This cant be how the ones like the old hd or Rowe stands are is it? Maybe it all tightens up when the cones push together on the bearings? I bought uncoated coarse thread rod cause i figured without the zinc coating it might be made to closer tolerances(no wobble/looseness) but this doesnt seem to be the case. Would fine thread all thread work better? Ideas?

Click to expand...

I have 3/4" on mine, yours looks like 1/2"

When the jam nuts are tightened against the outside faces of the coupling nuts it will centralize the threaded rod in the coupling nut. Even if there is sag in the rod I don't think it will impair your ability to get a wheel running true. You are looking for consistent indicator readings for all points around the rim. The positioning of the wheel within the test stand should make no difference.

You might consider putting the jam nuts on the opposite sides of the coupling nuts. As it is configured now the jam nuts will tend to pull the threaded rod away from the bearing cones. You definitely do not want them loose.

How do you ensure that the center of the rim is in line with the midline of the hub? You could get the rim running true, but pulled to one side or the other. Is it spoke tension?

JLarsson said:

How do you ensure that the center of the rim is in line with the midline of the hub? You could get the rim running true, but pulled to one side or the other. Is it spoke tension?

Click to expand...

I don't know how they do it in a production setting, they probably use a fixture, but I've always started out by eyeballing it. Once you get a very little bit of tension on at least four sets of spokes, 90* from each other, you can lay a straight edge across the rim and measure down to the hub from it. You then "pull" it where it wants to be with the spokes. You'll need to check it again periodically as you continue tightening the spokes and geting the rim to run true. Mark it up as you go and average out the errors. I've gotten laced wheels pretty damn true, even though it seems like it's impossible when you first start out and everything is loose and the rim is way out of round.

I beleive he ^ is correct on the centering question. Ive seen guys measure while its on a table just laced then once again off of the verticles on the stand. Some wheels are not centered and are offset quite a bit from the factory.

I posted this question on several sites and someone just tipped me off about acme thread, precision acme thread, and lead screws. Maybe one of thise is what i need? Is there less play in any of thise options?

Scoobydude said:

I posted this question on several sites and someone just tipped me off about acme thread, precision acme thread, and lead screws. Maybe one of thise is what i need? Is there less play in any of thise options?

Click to expand...

Acme threads usually have way more clearance between the mating parts, so I don't think that's the solution. I think a combination of the suggestions above would greatly help. A larger diameter thread would stiffen things up. A finer thread would have a bit less play as well. Moving the check nuts to the inside will pull things tighter.
Is there a reason the legs of the stand need to be so far apart? For truing wider rims???? I would place the legs as close together as they can be, that alone should make a huge difference.
The simplest thing I can think to try before major alterations to what you have, would be to use two long nuts(union nuts) placed on the inside to act as jam nuts. Their extra length will tend to stiffen the unsupported section of the threaded rod and may make it workable.

Are you doing bicycle wheels, or motorbike wheels?

For yourself, or are you setting yourself up in a business.

Bicycle wheels: find a trashed frame and cut the rear section off. This goes in a bench vise and
the wheel goes in the dropouts. A mixte frame actually works great for this.

If you are doing motorbike wheels as a business, then purchase a pro stand. It will save you time
and money building one.

If you are doing your own wheels then the simple answer is, do the wheel in the forks or swingarm
of its own bike. Again saves time and money.

Look up the term "dish." Every bike wheel for that bike has a specific dish (offset of the rim from hub
center) and you need to be able to lace them up with this in mind. Buy a *good* spoke wrench, one
for each size nipple you will be wrenching.

Motorbike wheels with new rims and new spokes practically true themselves. Be sure you understand the
correct lace pattern before you cut a wheel apart to re-spoke it.

You can purchase a very inexpensive dial gage to mount with a mag base. But honestly that is really not needed.
A tip to start:

1) rubber band a common pencil to the fork or stand. Adjust the pencil so it bears about half time on the rim.

2) when the pencil contacts the rim it will sound. When not contacting it is silent. Basically the fastest way to
true wheels (bicycle, motorbike, wheelchair) is by sound. As you bring the wheel into true the pencil point will be
moved closer and closer to the rim. Pro bicycle truing jigs don't use an indicator, but rather a yoke that can
be offset side to side, and made wider or narrower - again the sound does the thing.

Understand how lateral runout is adjusted, Understand the notion of overall spoke tension, and also understand
how 'hop' (radial runout) is adjusted. A wheel is done when the runouts are within limits AND the overall tension
is correct. If you finish a rim and the overall tension is too high or low this is a critical safety issue.

Toughest jobs are where the rim is bent, where spokes are rusted or siezed. You can to some degree overcome a
slight bend but often the best choice is new rim, new spokes. If a motorbike, use stainless spokes and USE THE
OIL they provide with them or you will regret it.

And in terms of the wheel bearings, bicycle wheels will have their own cone bearings and you turn the wheel on those
bearings. No need to tension.

For motorbike wheels you can turn the wheel on its own bearings as well but you need the axle, axle nut, and a spacer
to allow the bearing stack to preload up. If you are going this route you can simply clamp the long end of the
axle in a *stout* bench vise (brass jaws) and mount the gage (pencil, indicator) to the bench to bear on the
rim.

Acme threads will not centralize when the jam nuts are pulled up. V threads will centralize.

Could you make the stand with one half of the axle fixed? If you had the indicator on the side with a fixed axle you could reverse the wheel on the axle to check centering of the rim.

JLarsson said:

How do you ensure that the center of the rim is in line with the midline of the hub? You could get the rim running true, but pulled to one side or the other. Is it spoke tension?

Click to expand...

Not all motorcycle wheels have the rims centered on the hub. Some are offset. Can't remember which brands but there are a few.

I used to do my own wheels when I was racing motorcycles in my salad days. I still have my 1937 Harley-Davidson wheel truing jig and also my 1930's Harley flywheel truing jig.

If you can get ahold of an early Harley-Davidson manual, say 1980 to 1990, they have a chapter on truing wheels, how to lace them and the proper cross patterns for each diameter.

To answer your question, It's not difficult to keep them in the center. You would have a rod that touches the rim on one side and yes, it's all in the spoke tension. You will need a good spoke wrench.

I would also stay away from chrome-plated spokes. Some of those are not heat treated to prevent hydrogen embrittlement. When Triumph, in the 1960's for example, brought out bikes with chrome spokes, they suffered a rash of collapsed wheels where the ends broke off at the hubs.

I used stainless steel spokes. They stay tight, don't break and look good. Buchanan is a noted brand.

Newman109 said:

Not all motorcycle wheels have the rims centered on the hub. Some are offset. Can't remember which brands but there are a few.

I used to do my own wheels when I was racing motorcycles in my salad days. I still have my 1937 Harley-Davidson wheel truing jig and also my 1930's Harley flywheel truing jig.

If you can get ahold of an early Harley-Davidson manual, say 1980 to 1990, they have a chapter on truing wheels, how to lace them and the proper cross patterns for each diameter.

To answer your question, It's not difficult to keep them in the center. You would have a rod that touches the rim on one side and yes, it's all in the spoke tension. You will need a good spoke wrench.

I would also stay away from chrome-plated spokes. Some of those are not heat treated to prevent hydrogen embrittlement. When Triumph, in the 1960's for example, brought out bikes with chrome spokes, they suffered a rash of collapsed wheels where the ends broke off at the hubs.

I used stainless steel spokes. They stay tight, don't break and look good. Buchanan is a noted brand.

Click to expand...

When the rim is offset relative to the hub, do the spokes still have even tension on each side?

JLarsson said:

When the rim is offset relative to the hub, do the spokes still have even tension on each side?

Click to expand...

Yes, they do have even tension even when the specs call for an offset wheel. That's handled when you build your wheel. There are modern torque wrenches for even tightening, but I never used them. I worked by the sound of the spokes once the wheel was true and the spokes tightened. I worked in a bicycle shop when I was a kid and the owner taught me how to lace wheels. It's not difficult once you get the wheel assembled.

There are screwdriver slots on the ends of the nipples. These are used to get the spokes in place ready to tighten. If the wheel is high on one side, you loosen that side and tighten the other.

Once you have done a few wheels you will see that it's not difficult. I used to do mine on the kitchen table. It made my wife angry but that was only one issue on a whole list. (We're still married, LOL).

Have done both bicycle and motorcycle wheels.

Bicycle rear wheels are not centered on the hub. They are centered across the hub and gear cluster.

Have a bicycle truing jig that uses the rear or front axle. I use the same idea with motorcycles wheels. The axle is set on two points and a indicator (if needed) is used. When done there is no extra tool that sits around gathering dust. The bicycle truing stand does not sit around gathering dust. The box that it is stored in gathers the dust.

Here is my bicycle wheel trying stand that I have had for about 30 years. Very simple to use. I can’t remember the brand name. I worked in a bicycle shop for 10 years and laced a few wheels back in the day. The shop I worked in had a Park Tool truing stand which was a bit fancier than mine but worked the same way. I still have the common size Park spoke wrenches. We never used dial indicators to true the wheels, even the expensive road racers. Did it all by touch and tension.





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Bicycle rims are centered in relation to the flats on the axles that interface with the frame dropouts. Unless it's a dish-less singlespeed rear wheel, there is indeed higher tension on the drive side.. the higher tension accomplishes less dish on that side ie the spokes are less angled and provide more space on the axle for the gear cluster. Dish is checked with a dishing tool. Some stands are 'auto dishing' but checking with a dishing tool provides far better results. Indicators on a truing stand are like tits on a bull imo. Here is a picture of a nicely executed diy stand.

Interesting on the truing by sound , i will have to look that up more. Im a stubborn dude and i refuse to buy a stand and am really into this idea.

I think my big question before i do anything else is to figure out what type of threaded rod or threading system has the tightest fitting (rod to nut). I cant remember if it was on here or the other place i posted this about acme thread not centering up even with a jam nut, so maybe that idea is oit of the window too.

Taps come in different class fits. Make your own hardware with the tightest fit that you can live with. Taps don't cost so much. And you can cut a thread on a lathe to whatever spec you like. When I cut threads I creep up on some real tight fits. The off the shelf stuff (which is all import junk now) is loose as a goose.

None of the stands.. bicycle or motor.. used any fancy high brow threads. From that pic you posted, I would suggest a split nut so you can adjust fit, and the rod ends should be cones that fit into the axles instead of caps that slide over them. But yes, taking any slop out of the hub is key, otherwise you will chase your tail.

I got my Harley wheel stand many years ago and it has a threaded shaft with cones on either side. These fit into the bearings on each side of the Harley style wheel. Harley wheels have a spacer-sleeve inside between the bearings so that the nuts on the threaded "axle" can be tightened. Works fine.