Binns and Berry nightmare

Hello guys, I was interested to know if any of you have had to do headstock alignment checks on a Binns and Berry trident L1000. Our machine is tapering near the headstock 0.009” in 9 inches as I am boring out some parts. The bore is 3.5” in diameter and I am using a 2”” diameter boring bar so I don’t think it’s boring bar flex. I can’t see any means of adjusting the headstock side to side like most lathes to tune out the taper. This machine has caused me nothing but headaches for the last 5 years with one problem after another. Any suggestions would be really appreciated as the machine manual tells me nothing at all.

Piechomper said:

Hello guys, I was interested to know if any of you have had to do headstock alignment checks on a Binns and Berry trident L1000. Our machine is tapering near the headstock 0.009” in 9 inches as I am boring out some parts. The bore is 3.5” in diameter and I am using a 2”” diameter boring bar so I don’t think it’s boring bar flex. I can’t see any means of adjusting the headstock side to side like most lathes to tune out the taper. This machine has caused me nothing but headaches for the last 5 years with one problem after another. Any suggestions would be really appreciated as the machine manual tells me nothing at all.

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How are you boring with the tailstock in place ?

The bed probably has a twist in it. You need to level the machine.

Or, the machine is flat worn out. Lots of wear on the bed ways.

4GSR said:

Or, the machine is flat worn out. Lots of wear on the bed ways.

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The B&B L1000 is a bit of a strange bed arrangement. It is three flat shear on two levels and the saddle runs on the front two, and the steadies and tailstock run on the rear two so they can pass each other. The bed is pretty soft on the rear two shears and most of them are pretty badly worn there. The Front shear however is a through hard steel bolt on way and rarely has any wear. It's also pretty close to 5 inches wide as I recall so a pretty large surface. So the wear/accuracy characteristics are a bit different from most lathes.

Bed twist is a possibility, but I am almost certain there is headstock adjustment on that lathe. Been too many years since I stood in front of one to remember. My dad has one that we bought in fair shape and I did a lot of work to it at the time to make it good. B&B engineering is not the best.

Guarantee the bed is worn under the chuck .....my cure for the same problem so I could bore accurate bearing registers was to make a boring slide which is just a compound slide accurately scraped and use a mechanical drive to the compound......the mechanical drive is the secret,hand cranked is hopeless......In my case the lathe was a very big Swift ,replacement wasnt an option,due to cost /money /usage ...............simple test for your lathe is to see if you can produce accurate bores by using the compound with the saddle locked up.

I was unlucky enough to work on several “ Tridents “ in the past, mainly the 750 but also the odd 1000. As far as I recall the headstocks are the same. I remember adjusting the headstock to eliminate a taper but this is years ago and I can’t exactly recall what I did now. I seem to remember a row of bolts along the front of the headstock holding it in place. Maybe there are other bolts towards the back ?

I definitely remember doing the full alignment on one. Headstock and tailstock set in line correctly and the bed tweaked true using a taut wire and a microscope held in the tool post.

If there was a worse British lathe made I never worked on it. They really were a rubbish machine. Don’t get me going on setting up the device that controls the variable spindle speed function. That little block on the saddle that you’re supposed to use to drag the tailstock along the bed ! I must have replaced those about 50 times. You were right when you said “ nightmare “.

You get what you pay for I suppose. You could get two “ B&B “ lathes for the price of one “ DSG “ and some people did. They did have a really attractive sales director, Susan Berry ? , I think that helped.

Edit. On thinking about it - the hardened shear sections are bolted on but they are only in lengths of about 4 ft if I recall correctly. Maybe the section nearest the Chuck has been knocked out of alignment ? I had that happen once when the job, an extruder screw about 8ft long, came loose between Chuck and tailstock and gave the front shear an almighty wallop. It nearly killed the operator !

Good luck with it, Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

If there was a worse British lathe made I never worked on it. They really were a rubbish machine. Don’t get me going on setting up the device that controls the variable spindle speed function. That little block on the saddle that you’re supposed to use to drag the tailstock along the bed ! I must have replaced those about 50 times. You were right when you said “ nightmare “.

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When dad bought his, we had a job that required a lathe that size, and the L1000 was available fairly nearby for little money. It was in pretty rough shape and I fixed it up.

One of the things I did was completely rebuild the saddle with new bronze bushes as they were all worn, I was too green to know any better at the time but I remember dad watching over my shoulder while I was working and cursing that he'd spent money on such a poorly built machine.

The block you mention IIRC is just bolted down to the saddle with a couple of small cap screws? Pretty sure I tore that off a few times as well. The tailstock is massive and heavy and that thing is just not strong enough to move it.

I have heard that the variable speed drive is extremely poorly conceived and prone to problems on these, touch wood it always worked fine on that one. Dad still has it and it still runs and gets used occasionally. For it's flaws, it is a useful capacity machine.

gregormarwick said:

When dad bought his, we had a job that required a lathe that size, and the L1000 was available fairly nearby for little money. It was in pretty rough shape and I fixed it up.

One of the things I did was completely rebuild the saddle with new bronze bushes as they were all worn, I was too green to know any better at the time but I remember dad watching over my shoulder while I was working and cursing that he'd spent money on such a poorly built machine.

The block you mention IIRC is just bolted down to the saddle with a couple of small cap screws? Pretty sure I tore that off a few times as well. The tailstock is massive and heavy and that thing is just not strong enough to move it.

I have heard that the variable speed drive is extremely poorly conceived and prone to problems on these, touch wood it always worked fine on that one. Dad still has it and it still runs and gets used occasionally. For it's flaws, it is a useful capacity machine.

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Re the block for moving the tailstock. I was walking down the shop one day when there was a really loud bang and I saw that door on the end the machine covering the screw cutting change wheels fly open and a few bits of gears and the banjo that holds the gears in place fly out with the gears !

What had happened was the operator had pulled the tailstock into position to support a pretty big shaft. He was planning to screw cut the end of the shaft. As really bad luck would have it his screw cutting tool had ended up almost in line with the end of the shaft. So he positioned the screw cutting tool, set everything up, and then he switched on the spindle and engaged the screw cutting - without removing that plunger that goes through the block from the saddle to the tailstock ! BANG !

I was told by one of the B&B service engineers that when the apron was designed one of the directors told the draughtsman who’d done the design - “ I’m not happy with that, put a couple of years wear and tear into it “.
So the running clearances in the apron bushes you mention were increased !

Another thing was they were hard to get out of gear if you loaded up the dog clutches in the apron with a really heavy cut. You had to kick the lever to get it to move. Luckily it was positioned at knee height.

In spite of all that they stayed in business when all the quality British lathe builders were going to the wall.

Regards Tyrone.

Hi Tyrone, thanks for the advice . Your right about Binns and Berry machines, this is the biggest load of crap I’ve ever worked on. We’ve had no end of problems with the hydraulic drive and about 12 months ago I had to change the hydraulic hose from the oil pump up to the control valve in the headstock. Almost impossible, and I think the machine was built from the hose outwards!
We’ve had problems with bed shears, the gap pieces in the bed not being aligned or dowelled into position the list is endless.
The machine is also a pig just to use, the feeds jam up and it’s not easy to see the tool tip when touching off on a workpiece.
I actually met One of the old Binns and Berry bosses a few years ago whilst he was a manager at Colchester lathes. When I told him we had a Binns and Berry lathe he shook his head and advised me to scrap the thing as it would never be a good machine.
Give me a decent DSG any day instead of the this damn thing.

Piechomper said:

Hi Tyrone, thanks for the advice . Your right about Binns and Berry machines, this is the biggest load of crap I’ve ever worked on. We’ve had no end of problems with the hydraulic drive and about 12 months ago I had to change the hydraulic hose from the oil pump up to the control valve in the headstock. Almost impossible, and I think the machine was built from the hose outwards!
We’ve had problems with bed shears, the gap pieces in the bed not being aligned or dowelled into position the list is endless.
The machine is also a pig just to use, the feeds jam up and it’s not easy to see the tool tip when touching off on a workpiece.
I actually met One of the old Binns and Berry bosses a few years ago whilst he was a manager at Colchester lathes. When I told him we had a Binns and Berry lathe he shook his head and advised me to scrap the thing as it would never be a good machine.
Give me a decent DSG any day instead of the this damn thing.

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Hi Matey, I was terrified of anything happening to the hydraulic drive on the B&B lathes. I reckoned it was an overhead crane job if it went bad - lift the whole lathe up in the air so you could work underneath it ! Luckily we had the cranes to do it if need be. The little mechanism that controlled the hydraulic motor was a nightmare, it could be really difficult to tune it in so the Chuck stopped creeping around. It’s not easy miking a shaft when it’s slowly turning away from you !

One of the guys was given the job of threading a 2” dia tie bar one day. Not the lathe for that sort of job really. Next thing you know the tool grabbed and the four way tool post ended up in the tray. The spigot it revolved on was cast iron with a sharp corner and it had just snapped off like a rotten carrot.

When we phoned up B&B it was a 6 week wait for a new compound slide shoe so I carefully replaced the broken casting and fastened it back in place with 4 long cap head screws. It lasted for months until we decided to fit the new one. All our lathes had the powered extended compound slide because we turned a lot of bearing tapers. The gears inside looked like they were out of a cheap watch.

The hand wheels on all the axis had a really soft, spongy, feel to them. Not in the slightest bit positive. That’s even on the brand new lathes.

On one I installed we’d prepared the foundations according to the drawings B&B sent. When the lathe arrived and I lowered it over the foundation the rag bolt holes for the centre pedestal were about 12” out. They’d sent me the wrong drawing ! So that was the middle section of a brand new foundation getting dug up again.

Don’t get me going about bloody B&B !

Regards Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Hi Matey, I was terrified of anything happening to the hydraulic drive on the B&B lathes. I reckoned it was an overhead crane job if it went bad - lift the whole lathe up in the air so you could work underneath it ! Luckily we had the cranes to do it if need be. The little mechanism that controlled the hydraulic motor was a nightmare, it could be really difficult to tune it in so the Chuck stopped creeping around. It’s not easy miking a shaft when it’s slowly turning away from you !

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Dad started out as a mechanic. He told me that the little motor that shifts the swash plate was the windscreen wiper motor out of (if I remember his words correctly) an austin allegro. I don't know if it was built that way or if ours was upgraded in the field

gregormarwick said:

Dad started out as a mechanic. He told me that the little motor that shifts the swash plate was the windscreen wiper motor out of (if I remember his words correctly) an austin allegro. I don't know if it was built that way or if ours was upgraded in the field

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I was told it was from a “ Mini “. Possibly both cars had the same wiper motor. It was a really rudimentary concept. I worked on several of their lathes of various vintages and they all had that mechanism.

Talking of cars if you ever buy a “ Webster & Bennett “ DH vertical boring machine the brake is off an “ Armstrong-Siddley “, that was a “ bank managers “ car back in the day. The last time I tried you could still get the spares for them.

Regards Tyrone.