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breaking taps

shutinlead

Aluminum
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Location
Wyoming
I'd rather be lucky than good! Have about two dozen 1/4-20 holes for mounting a swivel I'm making, second one went to crap. New Brubaker tap went as programmed to depth, machine reversed and she snapped flush. Don't have any means of burning one out and can't justify one at the moment. Managed to use a 1/4-20 nut, and some safety-silv 56 - tinned the two and soldered them together- and the broken end backed out!!! doesn't always work but it did this time.

:D Greg
 

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Clumsily bastard!

Did you use any cutting fluid? Drill deep enough to leave space for the chips?

Anyway, good save.

I never tried machine tapping, but when I tap by hand I am a big fan of backing up about one turn after going forward for one and a half or two turns. It breaks the chip and helps to prevent the tap from jamming. It also allows the cutting OIL or fluid to get back on the cutting edge. In a deep hole, after several cycles of in two and back one I completely remove the tap from the hole and brush all the chips off. And I always use a cutting OIL or WD-40 when tapping aluminum. It takes more time, but it has been years, probably decades since I broke a tap.
 
That is a spiral flute, they pull the chips out as they cut, no need to drill extra deep, you can bottom them out.
 
It was a spiral flute and I was using some of the best tapping fluid known to man - it's contraband and to most that haven't been in the trade 30 years have never heard of it- White Pb - done right, in mild steel these tap at a very high rate of speed -enough to cause clenching of the sphincter for most... AND if you tap these by hand backing out frequently YOU will have a wreck. My 2 cents
 
Clumsily bastard!

Did you use any cutting fluid? Drill deep enough to leave space for the chips?

Anyway, good save.

I never tried machine tapping, but when I tap by hand I am a big fan of backing up about one turn after going forward for one and a half or two turns. It breaks the chip and helps to prevent the tap from jamming. It also allows the cutting OIL or fluid to get back on the cutting edge. In a deep hole, after several cycles of in two and back one I completely remove the tap from the hole and brush all the chips off. And I always use a cutting OIL or WD-40 when tapping aluminum. It takes more time, but it has been years, probably decades since I broke a tap.

You have way too much time on your hands.
 
If its a blind hole, I fill the hole with cutting oil prior to tapping. Yes, I go through a bit of oil but its as smooth as it gets. Naturally this is impractical with large taps but 95% of my work is 1/2" or smaller.
 
NO, I don't. I never have enough.

As for the spiral flute, I did notice that. IMHO, you still need some space for chips. They are sneaky and cantankerous and can get ahead of the bloody thing. And they can pack tight in those flutes, even if they are spiral ones.

The tap broke. I know that is true because I can see TWO pieces in the photos. You can't argue with that.

It takes force to break a tap. I have never seen one break while sitting in a box or tube. (Yea, yea, I know someone will have a story, but I don't believe it.) I stand by the fact that it does take force.

At some point while it was cutting the thread, the force on this tap became large enough to break it. I reread the original post and it apparently broke when the machine reversed to withdraw it. It seems obvious that something built up the drag on the tap to the point where the force was enough to break it.

At some point you will have to back it out anyway, unless you want to include the tap as part of your project. So I see no harm in backing it up a bit or even completely out EXCEPT that it takes TIME. Is that your "wreck"? Lost time? I could understand that. Or what? Sometimes you have to go back and forth several times to loosen the packed in chips. That's when you need to back it out completely and clean the flutes (YES, even spiral ones). I do it by feel, but using a machine to tap eliminates that. But you went to full depth with no reversals. At that point the cutting edges and the outer edges of the tap probably had NO fluid on them - between them and the metal being tapped. They were in intimate contact. Probably some molecular bonding going on there. No wonder there was a lot of force involved.

Perhaps you just have to accept some broken taps if you tap by machine. That would indicate that this is a very poor way to tap.

You used a good tapping fluid! Great! But if you only run it in one direction, DOWN, then little or none of that fluid is going to be on the cutting edges after a few threads are cut. Those cutting edges will be completely DRY. Backing up allows it to flow from the flutes where it does nothing down onto those edges where it can do some good.

I think a tapping head is a much better way if you want to power tap. I have threaded holes by the hundreds that way with zero broken taps. Of course, they cost money. Or at least something with a slip clutch.

But I still think backing up is often necessary if you want to avoid broken taps. If I were using a CNC mill to tap holes, I would program in the forward two and back one turn steps instead of just hogging down to full depth in one whack. But I guess that is me. But again, I have to wonder how someone working on a multi-hundred thousand dollar part would do it if tapping a bunch of holes was the last step. Oops, 100 plus hours of machining and a $250,000 part down the drain! I bet they would be extra, EXTRA careful at that point.



You have way too much time on your hands.
 
I never tried machine tapping...

You have way too much time on your hands.

NO, I don't. I never have enough.

I think we need a detective here to figure out why EPA doesn't have enough time... :D

regarding the case, I've broken spirals when I accidentally bottom them out, my experience goes against what Dualkit says in post #4 (if I understand correctly what he means by bottoming out), especially with small taps in softer aluminum grades, then it is 50/50 success of them staying intact if retrieved by hand, and I always immediately stop and continue by hand if I don't see continuous chips coming out of the spiral flutes
 
Having tapped thousands of holes with a tapmatic head, seems like the chip ejecting spiral taps are weaker than straight flute, spiral tip taps. Solution: Form taps!
 
Ran these this week. 100 blind holes, 6061, .110" drill, .6" deep, 6-32 Guhring spiral flute cut tap with their molyglide coating, .5" programmed tap depth at 6000 rpm no peck, blaser water soluble, 100 holes in 90 seconds (tapping time).

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Nice save, Greg. I never would have thought of using soft solder.

All about cost-benefit analysis, do you want to make a tap last twenty years or is breaking a few taps the price of productivity?

Can't agree on the best solution until you agree on the goal: Industry will break a few taps and scrap a few parts for the sake of tapping thousands of holes faster. If the parts are really expensive the taps might get thrown away Before they get old enough to break. (Taps do get dull, which increases the forces needed to do the work.)

A focus on individual craftsmanship is going to treat each tapped hole individually and care about process as much as results. Backing out, taking extra time for lubrication and chip clearing, and never breaking a tap become a points of pride rather than wastes of time.

Both may be tapping holes, but they're definitely not doing the same work, but you all can go on calling each other names. You seem to enjoy it. 😘
 
Nice save, Greg. I never would have thought of using soft solder.

All about cost-benefit analysis, do you want to make a tap last twenty years or is breaking a few taps the price of productivity?

Can't agree on the best solution until you agree on the goal: Industry will break a few taps and scrap a few parts for the sake of tapping thousands of holes faster. If the parts are really expensive the taps might get thrown away Before they get old enough to break. (Taps do get dull, which increases the forces needed to do the work.)

... ��

Guys,
I too tap thousands of holes per year, most get it done under power, some with rigid tapping on the CNC's, - three of my machines have it, many on the manuals. The smallest consistent being #2-56 in the Bridgeport on gun parts, the largest that comes to mind is the 3.5" NPT on Dragline crap and that's all the Cinci-Bickford radial wants. Lot's of 1"-8 and 1-1/4 - 7 etc. My percentage without breaking is very high and the occasional broken one removal is just as high. What I posted here is a process that I use frequently on larger parts, sometimes even the broken bolts - thought I'd share it. The silver is not soft, it's the same silver I use for making brazed carbide and HSS tools, broaches, gun drills and reamers and a few other misc. parts. Done right, it's holding strength is amazing, and what I did this time- the tap was a three flute spiral - there's not much for the silver to attach itself to - obviously enough though. One of the tricks to the procedure - don't clean the cutting fluid and swarf before attempting this - silver will stick to a clean surface. The torch will burn off some contaminates of the area you want silver and the flux will take care of the rest. Tin each part before trying to join them, add the heat and mate them. The whole process took me less than 5 minutes and the carnage was removed. Time is Money.
I didn't mean to start a bickering thread, but I hear a lot of one ups going on here. Why don't you try to be a little productive and if you have something worthwhile to say - offer it, if not, keep it to yourself and leave my posts alone. It's been a while since I posted on here but if time permits and I have a process or procedure worth sharing I do, I get a few from here and I like returning the favor - I felt this was.
Greg
 
I think we need a detective here to figure out why EPA doesn't have enough time... :D

regarding the case, I've broken spirals when I accidentally bottom them out, my experience goes against what Dualkit says in post #4 (if I understand correctly what he means by bottoming out), especially with small taps in softer aluminum grades, then it is 50/50 success of them staying intact if retrieved by hand, and I always immediately stop and continue by hand if I don't see continuous chips coming out of the spiral flutes

By bottoming out I mean "almost hitting bottom" but I have actually left a witness mark in the drill angle at the bottom of a bore and not broken a spiral tap. For the record I haven't tapped any exotic materials in ages. Most of my blind hole tapping has been on CNC lathes in brass, aluminum, plastic, and or mild steel.
 
Shutinlead,
Thanks for the tips on the solder process, I was wondering how you achieved a good bond with so little contact area.
I’ve broken a few taps in the end of 1.25” stainless round bar, finally figured out the drill had slipped in the chuck and wasn’t drilling deep enough. For the record it was done on an old turret lathe so no flaming please. The material size ws not worth an extraction attempt so I just cut new parts.
Anyway, thanks for posting.

MM
 
I'm a bit confused, did the tap break upon reversing ?
I found the ones that broke upon reversal were from chip packing.
 
I'm a bit confused, did the tap break upon reversing ?
I found the ones that broke upon reversal were from chip packing.

Yes it did break the moment the spindle reversed. Like I mentioned it was a new tap or the second hole anyway and it wasn't a no-name brand either. The next tap out of the box I tried did the next 22 holes with no issues. Doug, that's what I expected too, I pulled a couple of the chip ribbons out before soldering and when I did get the tap out there wasn't the packing per se. After tapping about ten I lost some of my nerve and power tapped them short and finished them with a hand tap when the part was removed - something about being lucky...:D
 
Well, I always thought that they looked weaker, but did not have any data to support that. Your observation is welcomed. Thanks for sharing.



Having tapped thousands of holes with a tapmatic head, seems like the chip ejecting spiral taps are weaker than straight flute, spiral tip taps. Solution: Form taps!
 
Holes drilled 0.6" deep. Tap stopped at 0.5" down. 0.6" - 0.5" = 0.1" space.

And I got jumped on for suggesting that some chip space be incorporated in the holes. Your technique sounds good to me.



Ran these this week. 100 blind holes, 6061, .110" drill, .6" deep, 6-32 Guhring spiral flute cut tap with their molyglide coating, .5" programmed tap depth at 6000 rpm no peck, blaser water soluble, 100 holes in 90 seconds (tapping time).

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