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Butler Elgamill Spares

Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Manchester, England
Hi , Does anyone know of a reputable supplier of spare parts for Butler-Elgamills in the UK. In particular I'm looking for a relief valve for the hydraulic slideways clamping system ( made by Andrew Fisher- Mono Radial ). Whilst I'm at it anyone know what pressure the clamps should work at ? I've set this one at 1,200 psi and it seems ok but I'd like to know the correct settings. Regards Tyrone.
 
I think you might struggle with spares for the old Fraser Mono-Radials.Do you mean the relief valve that`s built into the rear of the pump body?
There were two of them,a low pressure and a high pressure IIRC.Used to have dozens of these pumps on the rubber moulding presses.
Someone owns the Butler Elgamill name possibly the same lot that own Broadbent although that might now be Chinese.
Alec at Budget Machinery will know.He might even have a manual.I know him quite well if you don`t like to ask him.
Mark.
 
In search of Tom Purdue (apologies to Marcel P)

Talk about reverberations of youthful infatuations ... I can still smell the ink on those gorgeous brochures from Butler Elgamill

- but sadly by the time we could afford to be looking at machines of that calibre, the layout had been 'me-too'ed by the likes of Zayer, Mecof, and Sachmann, which were all much more affordable, so we ended up buying one or more of all of those.

Over time we got through four or five Zayers of various sizes, but I think the Sachmann was probably marginally the nicest to drive of the lot.

I don't understand why that configuration doesn't seem to have any penetration on the western shores of the Atlantic. I get the feeling there are even fewer Elgamill-style mills in the US than Thiel / Deckel-style (whose scarcity I also find puzzling, albeit more familiar: the latter are also scarce here in NZ).

I mean heck, patents only last less than two decades, then it's open slather.
 
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Thanks for the responses guys, I was out all yesterday so I couldn't reply sooner.

Mark , On this machine there's a pump pack bolted to the back of the column. It supplies pressure oil to the various clamps on the three way clamp set ups. It was buzzing like a very large and angry bee. There's a pump under the tank then a filter and then a relief valve mounted on the tank, after that the oil is sent to where ever it's needed via various valves and solenoids.
My trusty accoustic screwdriver narrowed the problem down to the relief valve which was hammering. When I pulled the valve apart the nose of the needle plunger was badly worn and an " O " ring was badly worn. I've replaced the " O " ring with a similar one and refitted everything else. Also there's a small fancy circlip that I had to maul a bit to remove.
The machine is much quieter now and I'm happy with it but I'd like to see if I can locate a repair kit for the valve, chance's are it'll get noisy again sometime.
I'll pass on the info about Butlers to my client.

Troup, I thought that " Mecof " were the first in the field with the" Elgamill " type machine and they licensed the concept to " Butler ". Indeed the first " Elgamills " I saw were badged " Butler-Mecof ".
With the rapid decline in the planer market and " Butler" missing the chance to get a hold of the plano-mill market the " Elgamill" was probably a life saver.
Regards Tyrone
 
Thanks for that Mark , I'll pass the info on. I'll be around there tomorrow so I'll increase the clamp pressure to 1500 psi. I've got another job on a big " Archdale " radial arm drill, it's got an old but quite intricate spindle speed pre-select mechanism that's playing up, it won't select the low speeds. It's before the "Asquith-Archdale" era, I'd say about mid 1960's. A client bought it from some guy in Dundee I think, this is a couple of years ago. You've no mates who are ex- "Archdale" have you ? Regards and thanks again . Tyrone.
 
Tyrone,
is it an OD1?It should be if it`s pre 1975 ish.They never changed from before the forties until the seventies and Asquith got their hands on them.They go on for ever.I will PM you a contact who will tell you what you need to know for free.
Dundee is a place to avoid at all costs,it`s full of guys with very deep pockets and really short arms.

Mark.

Edit:Sorry got muddled up there,the OD1 is an Asquith,not the other way around.
 
I wish it was an OD 1 Mark, great drills and very little ever goes wrong with them. This is a decent drill, the gearing is in first class condition but the guys who work it are a bit brutal. It's got a speed pre-selection knob which you rotate ( 16 speeds ), This conects to the pre-selector gearbox itself by a chain linkage, when you've chosen your speed there is a long arm on the left of the drilling head you push away and then pull towards you. This works a mechanism like a large clock ! It's got four rotating discs with little keys ( gluts in Lancashire ) that engage with four selector arms which move the gears up and down splined shafts to give you the various speed ranges. I can't find anything visually wromg with either the pre-selector or the gearing so I'll re-build it tomorrow and see what happens. Lining the gluts up with the selector arms in a blind assembly will be a laugh but who dares wins as they say. Thanks for your help Tyrone.
 
Tyrone

Thanks for the interesting angle on the origins of the Elgamill's travelling column configuration.

In those far-off days we down here relied on what we could glean from sailormen off passing square-riggers ... ;-) , or, more to the point, we were still tightly strapped to Mother England's apron strings ... so I am very open to having had the succession wrong.

The first couple of machines of that type we installed were indeed the Mecof marque. Does anybody know when the first milling machines of the travelling column type were sold?
 
The first NC "Elgamill" that I worked on in 1966 was in fact a Mecof sold by Elgar Machine Tools of West London to Marley Tiles at Lenham Kent. Soon afterwards it became Elgamill before becoming Butler Elgamill some time later.

It was fitted with a Ferranti point to point control & it was my first visit to a customer after joining Ferranti as a Customer Engineer three weeks earlier.

Had I known that 43 1/2 years in the future, Tyrone, that you would be in need of a pressure relief valve, I would have scrounged one & put it on one side for you.

Don.
 
Hi Mark, I have not seen any of the controls of that era for about 20 years. No doubt there may be a few in museums.


When I started with Ferranti, they had just introduced their all transistor SCOPE point to point control (Specifiable Co-ordinate Positioning Equipment} & I was given a manual (full of errors) to study & a control to play with. Most of the engineers were out on site trying to get the first manufactured batch to work. Part way through my third week, I was put on a Vanguard from Turnhouse to Heathrow with a couple of spare circuit boards on route for Marley Tiles near Maidstone to meet up with a slightly more experienced engineer who was having trouble with the Mecof. The other engineer was asked to move on to another job at the end of that day leaving me up to hold the baby. Seemed to make a good impression though as the Elgar rep. tried to get me to work for them on my next visit.

In those days, the control systems were by no means plug & play. It was not unusual to spend 8-10 weeks on site sorting out design shortcomings before the machines would operate anywhere near satisfactorily. About a year after that, it was decided that the circuit switching parameters were too marginal & so all controls were retrofitted with modified printed circuit boards (about 80 boards per system) & re-comissioned. The same thing happened when a similar control was supplied to BSA for their first 50 Batchmatics that additionally wanted wiring modifications. I had a retrofit team of 3 working with me going round the 20 or more machines already supplied to customers. Neither did it end there, this was repeated through into the 70's first with integrated circuits through to microprocessor based systems.

Undercapitalisation on desigh & development probably played a major part in the above together with pressure to ship systems before they were ready.

They had for some time been making continuous path systems for the aerospace industry using 1/4" 4 track magnetic tape with the 3 control tracks for the axes phase modulated with respect to the master track. The tqpes had to be produced by Ferranti from the customer's drawings, although, the aircraft industry set up their own facility later (possibly Hatfield).

I have in front me a Machinery Publishing Company yellow book No49 1965 ""Numerical Control Systems for Automatic Operation of Machine Tools that illustrates these controls. Unfortunately, I dumped all documentation long ago.

I beleive that there was a forerunner to the SCOPE made in small numbers.

When I started with Ferranti, I was told that I would be working in the English Midlands. The engineer's coordinator in Dalkeith had a tiny map of the British Isles on the wall & when I complained of the area I was covering, he told meit was only an inch on his map.

The nc division of Ferranti was transferred to Plessey in 1970.

Tyrone,

I am not too familiar with earlier machines, but I seem to recollect seeing Elgamills on my travels with DROs if I remember correctly. Don't know how the axis feed was arranged.

The 1966 machine did have Mecof badging & the Ferranti drawings were marked Mecof, but on reflection I cannot rule out that there was also an Elgamill badge added either before or after my first visit as several of Elgar's potential customers were shown the machine. For all I know it may have been the original.

Don
 
Don -

Apologies to the original poster for maybe taking this off topic a bit- You mentioned the BSA Batchmatic. What was the difference between Herbert Batchmatic and BSA Batchmatic? I recall one but not the other.
 
I will add a bit on the Batchmatic too.I think it was a Herbert machine when Herberts owned BSA but it was designed by BSA originally and when BSA got free of Herberts they carried on building them.I had one called a Bullard.This was because at that time WCI (White Consolidated Industries) owned BSA and it was called a Bullard 1000.
The machine I had was a cracking machine with a GE2000 control.It was as new having been in a Royal Ordnance factory then owned for a short time by another company before it was repossed and I bought it from the bank.Unfortunately an operator set it on fire and destroyed it and I scrapped it a few weeks ago.

Don,a late,great friend of mine worked on the Batchmatic project when it was getting of the ground.His name was David Blizzard.Did you know him?

Mark.
 








 
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