Buying A Milling Machine

I'm new to the forum here and I'm wondering if I can get some advice in buying a Milling Machine.
Alright, Here's what I'm generally looking for... A Knee-Mill with Powerfeed and around a 9"x42" Table. It'll be a Homeshop Mill, so I don't count on running it 50+ Hours a Week and so one, more like 10-20 Hours a week, if even. I'm looking at working on primarily paintball equipment, so machining items like Picatinny Rail Mounts, Foregrips, etc. So alot of Aluminum, occasionally steel and so on.
I was looking at the Grizzly Model G9901, altough it's not a Bridgeport by any means, it's right around my price range, ohh yeah, which is around $4,000-5,000. I've read that the Grizzly Mills have thier occasional issues, but it's usually due to Shipping, well I can overcome that by picking it up in person, and also, I would plan on disassembling it and assembling it to insure it's nice and tight. Also, from what I've read, you can purchase a Grizzly Mills made in Taiwan, which are supposidley better than the China made ones.
I've also been hearing names like Birmingham Mills and some others. Anyone here ever use a Grizzley or Birmingham Mill or any other mill in my general price range, what did you think?
As for buying a used Mill, I've thought about it, but I don't want to caught up in a massive rebuild by any means, which could cost more than I planned on, for any of you who rebuilt used mills, how was the mill and about how much money did you put into rebuilding it? Since I live in NE Ohio, I'm pretty sure finding a decent used mill wouldn't to hard.
Here's that Grizzly I was talking about...
G9901 Vertical Milling Machine
So what's your guys opinions, got any suggestions on for a mill, etc.

Thanks, O'Lane

O'Lane: You asked about experiences with mill rebuilds. I did a 1940's-or-so small Sheldon/Vernon, and found it an excellent machine. I put about $150 into the job, but the money was not the major thing to me. The time was. It occupied most of a Fall, working on it part-time, of course.

Almost the exact question you ask has already been asked and answered here a hundred times already, so you might try search via keywords like "Grizzly mill"

Re used mills, you are in the heart of used iron...probably tripping over them as you go out the door to work !

I would plan on disassembling it and assembling it to insure it's nice and tight.

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So you have decided that you are going to buy
a "new" mill and then tune it up, what's wrong
with that picture? For what you are willing to
spend you could find a nice and tight old Bridgeport, and still have cash left over for
tooling. For the record I have 7 mills, all bought second hand and they all get used.
The only one that has needed repairs, the
Chinese one, and it is the newest! Parts fall
off of it when no one is around, and now it is
hard to get into back gear, it came from a place where a friend worked and is very low hours.
I would rather have a 30 year old BP then new
Chinese, just my opinion,............Bob

Almost the exact question you ask has already been asked and answered here a hundred times already, so you might try search via keywords like "Grizzly mill"

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But Don, this discussion is so much fun, the new
"Chinese" vs used "American Iron" debate, like
a good comedy movie, you can watch it again
and again and still enjoy it!

Yeh , this topic could be called "some like it shot"
Frank

Alright, well I didn't mean to start any arguments over what's better, just looking for opinions, etc. And Thomas, I have searched this forum and many other(HomeShopMachinest, etc.) for information.

Overall, the most common answer I'm getting is buy a used Bridgeport and redbuild it to like new condition. Well that's what it looks like what I may end doing. I did some searching over the internet and came up with this site.

Cleveland Machinery

So I'll keep an eye on the site, I did notice though that he had a nice fairly nice looking used Bridgeport. And since it's like a 30 minute drive, may be worth looking into, what do you think.

MIll

For all of you who have rebuilt Bridgeports, can you give me an idea on what generally needs replaced, such as belts, etc. Hopefully I can get an idea on the amount of cash that could possibly be put into it.

If you buy new, take a look at Sharp mills.

I bought a Jet JTM-2 awhile back. It's a $5200 mill, shipped to my door for $3600, brand new, thanks to Amazon coupons and promotions at the time. I can probably sell it for more than I paid.

You should be able to find dovetail ram type with a 2J head (variable speed) for somewhere in the 3K range.

The old J heads never gave problems as long as the operators knew how to change from lo to high and visa versa.
If the front pulley wasn't dropped, big time gear grinding. Other than that, they were more dependable than the 2J's.
2J heads have a cone pulley variable speed which does wear out, if it needs repair, the machine will be loud as heck. Run the machine thru the spindle range, it should be quiet. I can't remember how much it cost, but I had mine comepletely rebuilt by b/p (20 yrs ago), and they shipped a loaner head in a crate. There are members on here that rebuild these type machines.

Run the Y axis out away from the column, and raise the table up- put an indicator in the spindle or use an indicol, whatever; set the indicator on the table and lock, unlock the knee.
Look for excessive drop when loosening the lock.
Check the backlash in the X & Y-- should be around .01-015 for a leadscrew machine ( if really good) Not terrible to be more- mine is about .025. Some of the leadscrew nuts are adjustable, some aren't - you can saw a slit and d/t a hole to modify the non adjustable ones.
See if the table is noticibly freeer in the center of the travel (X) than out at the extents.
Snug the lock in the middle, to where it feels tight, but not stiff, then move out to the ends; if you can't go all the way, chances are you'll need gib work.
Check the 4 vertical bolts that lock the swivel- the "spider" is notorious for breaking or threads stripping out.
Check the power feed for boring- although B/P's usually last for ever, and the Clausings, supermax, Laguns, seem to need fixing when new.

I am one of those that would rebuild a Bridgeport before thinking about Grizzly.
(and I do own a German and a Spanish mill)
BTW-
I've got an original bridgeport glass scale I'm trying to refurbish-- if any of you guys know much about them, I need to dissassemble the scales to clean.
Sam

O'Lane,
That Bridgeport you linked to, according to the chart I have, was made in 1951. For the money you have to spend, you can get something much newer.

Have you looked on ebay? Use the advanced search.

How about a nice looking Bridgeport in Mass.

Wayne

[ 09-04-2006, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: W. Johnson ]

All this "rebuilding" talk is ridiculous for a first mill...you need something ready to go and accurate right off the bat.

For a pidley $4,500 I'll sell ya just that... a nicer VF3 model Abene mill, that needs nothing. Plus it beats the pants off any Bridgeport...integral power feeds all 3 axis, no. 40 spindle (as opposed to pitiful R8 of a Bridgey), vertical and horizontal head postions ! Made in Sweden, still in business, and with a nice vise and box full of tooling...beautiful machine....takes up no more floor space than a Brideport...actually less air space as it's shorter.

(a sister mill...don't have a pix handy of mine)

All this "rebuilding" talk is ridiculous for a first mill...you need something ready to go and accurate right off the bat.

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I agree with that. And he said he had enough money for something that shouldn't need rebuilding.
I certainly would go with something newer than the round ram J head.

Also needs to be said that Bridgeport is now Hardinge, and who knows what's going to happen there- already it's been said that they're stopping production on HLV's.

Got a link or a pic, Don? I'm not in the market, but I have a friend who might be.
My next mill will have a toolchanger.

Does yours have DRO?

40 spindle (as opposed to pitiful R8 of a Bridgey),

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Are you throwing in any holders on the deal?
Aren't the 40 holders about $100 each compared
to $15-$20 on the R-8? Not picking a fight, just
a BP guy defending his machines! Also I say NO to
the round ram also!

On Ebay there are a lot of mills in Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Indiana. If I were closer I would already have a mill. Those good deals up north are unreal.

Jackal

For a pidley $4,500 I'll sell ya just that... a nicer VF3 model Abene mill, that needs nothing.

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Don, that's the "VHF-3". That's a newer model, with the 40 INT spindle. The earlier versions, made up until the 70's had an MT4 spindle. The newer models also come in a 30 INT.

You can't tell from that picture, but the really desireable ones are the VHF-3BS, with a quill. You can tell by the downfeed lever and fine handwheel feed attached to the rotating spindle head. The quill only has 3" of travel, but it's better than not having one

Nice machine!

By the way, the "sister" machine in the picture you posted is in spectacular condition -- is it for sale?

Let me preface this post with

That being said,
Beware of a salesman who says, "I'll sell you one, looks just like this one --

Sorry D.

Since you are in the Cleveland area, there are over 50 vertical mills here, most under $4,000. They will deal, and most prices are very negotiable.

http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/search-results.aspx?k=1&searchCategory=MT&searchKeyword=vertical%20mill

For your requirements, there are plenty of good used Bridgeports that can be put to work right away without any need for rebuild.

Well, I should pretty much face the facts, as D said, rebuilding my first mill is ridiculous, it would definitly be nice to have something ready to go right off the bat.

Ebay has some good deals, but unless I can personally view the mill, I would rather not buy, plus I've had my fair share of shipping incidents, so I'd rather drive it back myself, but I'll keep an eye out for anything in my area.

By the way, what do you guys think of HP and Phase, for what I'm planning on doing, im thinking a 2Hp Mill should work fine, but not to sure about the Phase, I heard from work I should go with a 2 Phase.

Precision, I've been keeping an eye on Hgr, and may swing by there sometime, if there's a Bridgeport in good shape for a good price, it's definitly worth looking into. I know a few people who know alot about milling machines, so if it comes down to buying a used B/P, i'll definitly have one of them tag along to help inspect it.

By the way, what do you guys think of HP and Phase, for what I'm planning on doing, im thinking a 2Hp Mill should work fine, but not to sure about the Phase, I heard from work I should go with a 2 Phase.

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1 or 2 horsepower will be fine. Asian machines almost always quote stall current (as opposed to actual HP at the shaft), so I would go with a 2HP motor if you end up with one of the Grizzy mills.

3-phase is preferrable, since it has smoother torque (less cogging) than single-phase. Assuming you don't have 3-phase in your workshop, you can buy a VFD (phase converter) for around $200, and get electronic continuously variable spindle speeds as a side benefit.

Are you throwing in any holders on the deal?
Aren't the 40 holders about $100 each compared
to $15-$20 on the R-8?

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I did say "with a box of tooling" but of course wasn't specific. Hell, I don't remember what's in the box for gawds sake, but recall probably at least a dozen no. 40 holders...and not just simple end mill holders, but shell holders, drill chucks, all sorts of goodies

Since you are in the Cleveland area, there are over 50 vertical mills here, most under $4,000. They (HGR) will deal, and most prices are very negotiable.

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HGR would be an insane place for a neophyte machinist to buy a mill. It's the ultimate high risk situation...owners know nothing, buyer knows little, you can't put anything under power, and the prices are usually relatively high considering the iffy conditions and risk involved. Re negociation, my experience with them was that they would *not* negociate, at least not much...except perhaps on machines that had been sitting around for many months. Which was frustating to me, as there were things that I was interested in, but knew they would never get what they were asking in a million years...and yet they wouldn't budge on the price until it sat there for a few more months.

HGR is for fools and well seasoned machinery buyers who really know their stuff.

Having said that, they do allow returns...so less risk for someone in the area that can haul a machine both ways themself...still, quite a PITA even for that.

Beware of a salesman who says, "I'll sell you one, looks just like this one --

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toolmkr, you are FOS this time....mine looks better than that one if anything...I simply don't have a photo of it and figured any photo would be better than nothing so he would have some idea of what an Abene VHF-3 was.