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Buying used machine through dealer

vmipacman

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Location
Virginia, USA
I would like a little guidance on working with a dealer to buy a machine without seeing it in person. People do it all the time right? It’s 12hrs away by car and work is busy and the world not travel friendly right now.
The “reseller”/broker/dealer whatever has been awesome but he doesn’t have a vested interest in my success.
We had a FaceTime call with the seller where he walked around the machine and showed it etc. The deal is good. Everything seems to be coming together easily. The machine is what it is. I feel ok extending a certain amount of trust to the seller regarding how he describes the condition. Its not really the machine I am worried about, it’s the other details.
What if I don’t get manuals like the seller said? What if a pc of sheetmetal was left back? What if it’s damaged between there and here? I am paying the dealer for machine+rigging+delivery if that matters. If I pay him and he pays seller, what’s the recourse if something falls through on my end? What are the critical things to watch out for or make sure are in writing? Without getting all lawyer on them and turn into the pita customer that is too hard to work with.
Thanks
 
We purchased a 38’long American Pacemaker Lathe from a dealer in Chicago last year. I flew up to take a look, watch it run, and see it in person. It turned out great.

But just 6 months before, we saw a ad at a major dealer up north for a 42 ft LeBlond. I flew up to take a look, and found out the machine was in a million pieces, all in boxes. It had been in Government storage for about 50 years.

At least that explained why the price was so good.

If possible, go look for yourself.
 
We purchased a 38’long American Pacemaker Lathe from a dealer in Chicago last year. I flew up to take a look, watch it run, and see it in person. It turned out great.

But just 6 months before, we saw a ad at a major dealer up north for a 42 ft LeBlond. I flew up to take a look, and found out the machine was in a million pieces, all in boxes. It had been in Government storage for about 50 years.

At least that explained why the price was so good.

If possible, go look for yourself.

What is the company your bought the Pacemaker from?

Tom
 
We purchased a 38’long American Pacemaker Lathe from a dealer in Chicago last year. I flew up to take a look, watch it run, and see it in person. It turned out great.

But just 6 months before, we saw a ad at a major dealer up north for a 42 ft LeBlond. I flew up to take a look, and found out the machine was in a million pieces, all in boxes. It had been in Government storage for about 50 years.

At least that explained why the price was so good.

If possible, go look for yourself.

90% of used machine dealers are slightly less honest than used car salesman. At least in the UK they are. I've had plenty of wild goose chases looking a machines than turned out to be not what was stated in the advertisement.

There are decent, honest dealers over here and there are possibly in the USA also. The problem is they have to swim in the same sea as the Sharks. Hoping I don't get accused of being an ass kisser here but our esteemed leader appeared to be a decent dealer going off what he's posted on here.

I made it a rule to never buy anything without seeing it run first years ago when I got taken for a ride with a large planer type Hor bore that was in a dismantled condition. The dealer assured me the machine had been running perfectly well before being stripped down.

When I got it all back together again I could have cried. The spindle wouldn't run, most of the feeds and rpt wouldn't run, the power clamping was faulty. In fact the only thing that worked properly was the lights to the vernier scales ! In the end I got it running again but it took ages and a new electrical control panel was required.

I couldn't believe what I was seeing, after that I said " never again ".

Having said that it's a lot easier in the UK. From where I live in the middle of the country you can get anywhere and back in a day's drive.

Regards Tyrone.
 
It's kind of hard to "feel" the ways of a machine from a camera view. You got to be there in person or know somebody that you can trust, which I don't know of anybody other than John Oder, that can feel the ways to make sure they don't feel like a "wash board" be able to twist every knob, crank every handwheel, and so on. CNC equipment is a little different animal to determine condition of. Most in my opinion are wore out, when they are up for sale. Not saying there isn't one by pure luck in very good condition. Lots things to look at and consider. MAin thing is, what is it going to cost to get the machine back up and running once it arrives at your shop? Shouldn't cost any more that hooking up electricity and air. But what if you get it running and one of the servo's goes up in smoke? Or a ball screw craps on you? or a linear bearing(s) is bad? Just so many variables to think about.

You're pretty much forced to go in person to look at the machine you want regardless the time it takes to travel. Go hire a private airplane to fly you to the point near where the machine is located at and arrange a rental car to get you there when you land. It's all tax deductible. Ken
 
Unless you've established a prior trusting relationship with the seller(and arguably even then) the only way is to go there. Even the most honorable can make mistakes and oversights. I bought a pair of VMCs from a dealer 10 hours away. First I went and looked. Then I went back with a Penske truck and picked up all the loose items, tooling, spare parts, manuals, etc. Then I sent a trusted rigger to go load them and deliver them here. Even at that there was a significant item left behind that had to be shipped later. Unless it's a pick and go item like a surface grinder or a Bridgeport that I'd be willing to ship back if the deal went sour I'd do the due diligence myself.
 
There is one machine dealer in town I would trust..most I would not trust..not that they are dishonest it is that they often just don't know..any machine not under power is a crap shoot in the dark.
 
I'm with these guys.

Path of least resistance is to simply Wait until you can Travel, go test it and see if its what you want before it ever moves off their floor. Schedule vacation days if you have to. Gasoline is inexpensive right now.

I bought a lathe from a dealer once, they were completely OK with me going out to the floor, they supplied power and I turned a test bar, I brought my own material, mics, and toolpost, indicators for testing the tailstock & main ways, small broom & dustpan for cleanup. I offered to vacuum it all back to pristine if they'd loan me a shop vac. They just said "take your time" and do what you want to do. Nobody was hovering over me. Although they made no representations about its condition I was impressed at what I measured and bought it.

If you do that procedure for the first time on your own shop floor and are unsatisfied, there is *No Way* a dealer is going to reverse the delivery & rigging without you paying for those line items a second time on the way back. Not sure what those are costing you but I'm going to guess in 4 figures.
 
All good stories and insight. I am rethinking the part about not seeing it...My thought now is to go up the day of rigging out and make sure all the items are loaded and that I get everything in one shot. Like I said, the machine is likely what it is... its the extra bits and pieces that worry me most. Like leaving a box of manuals on the floor or the leveling pads in a corner... I can get some time around the machine before rigging out and if its very different then expected I can call off the deal on the spot and refuse the machine before it leaves there building. I might loose the rigging cost but better than having it not be right after its delivered and I like the idea of making sure everything comes together. Better plan?

Can anyone talk to the legalities of the deal though? Like as the buyer how can I ensure that the agreed upon items are actually even sent? If I go with above plan then its a moot point but still would like to know. In theory, I give dealer money, he gives it to seller, and machine is shipped. All happy. They literally make it sound that easy, which makes me thing I should be asking for certain written policies. The final quote and invoice then sent me is litteraly devoid of any conditions or terms. Just a simple quickbooks form. Is it up to me to write up terms in the "unlikely" event things went really south?

EDIT: Well, actually not quite a moot point because by then dealer and maybe seller will have the money but it would make it legally much easier to get the money back if I have no machine I would think.
 
The last four manual machines I bought for my shop were bought sight unseen. Just relied on pictures. Only did this because the machines were cheap, less shipping, and I knew I had to do some (LOTS of) work to make them usable again. Once I did necessary repairs to them, they turned out to be somewhat decent machines for what I wanted them for. Ken
 
When I bought my CNC lathe it was from the Seattle area and I live near Silicon Valley so not really easy for me to go take a look.

Then there was the much more important second point that nobody has mentioned. While I am more than capable of finding things wrong that are very obvious like missing pieces or broken and thrashed components I didn't know anything about what to look for or what could be wrong with a CNC lathe.

Meaning I could go look at it all I wanted and still buy a lemon. I just do not have the depth of experience to know all the little quirks of a bunch of brands of CNC machines.

You know who does though? CNC repair companies. I looked for an independent CNC repair outfit in the Seattle area that also performed inspections including sending me a written report of everything they had found. I think it cost about $200 and was worth every penny. He looked at things and tested things I would never have thought or would know how to check. Also gave me a complete inventory listing of everything that was with the machine so I could include that with the purchase agreement.

Best money I ever spent. Machine has been running for 3 years now and the only issues have been with my lack of experience not the machine.
 
All good stories and insight. I am rethinking the part about not seeing it...My thought now is to go up the day of rigging out and make sure all the items are loaded and that I get everything in one shot. Like I said, the machine is likely what it is... its the extra bits and pieces that worry me most. Like leaving a box of manuals on the floor or the leveling pads in a corner... I can get some time around the machine before rigging out and if its very different then expected I can call off the deal on the spot and refuse the machine before it leaves there building. I might loose the rigging cost but better than having it not be right after its delivered and I like the idea of making sure everything comes together. Better plan?

Can anyone talk to the legalities of the deal though? Like as the buyer how can I ensure that the agreed upon items are actually even sent? If I go with above plan then its a moot point but still would like to know. In theory, I give dealer money, he gives it to seller, and machine is shipped. All happy. They literally make it sound that easy, which makes me thing I should be asking for certain written policies. The final quote and invoice then sent me is litteraly devoid of any conditions or terms. Just a simple quickbooks form. Is it up to me to write up terms in the "unlikely" event things went really south?

EDIT: Well, actually not quite a moot point because by then dealer and maybe seller will have the money but it would make it legally much easier to get the money back if I have no machine I would think.

There is a middle way nowadays that wasn't open to me until almost the end of my machine buying career. You could get the seller to run through the gears, view the ways, view the general condition of the machine etc, etc whilst it's still under power on his cell phone and send you the results. Not ideal I know but better than nothing.

What sort of machine is it you're thinking of buying ? Bench top lathe or Plano-mill ? Conventional or CNC ? That makes a world of difference. Big bucks or pocket change - relatively speaking of course ?

Regards Tyrone.
 
Big bucks to me. Pocket change for this type of machine. Thus I don’t expect anyone to go the extra mile. Just need to get the items I expect to be paying for in the condition as advertised. Which is as-is basically.
 
Can anyone talk to the legalities of the deal though? Like as the buyer how can I ensure that the agreed upon items are actually even sent?

You apply the relevant points of contract law. Which means attorneys. Enough said about that?
The UCC applies in lieu of a written contract, but that isn't much in your favor. A boilerplate contract from the dealer could be even worse once you read the fine print.
 
One of the problems I encountered is, most machine tool dealers are not machinist! Once that is established, it pretty much indicates that you need to know everything possible about the machine you want to buy.
Machine tool dealers buy machines all the time without inspection, the trick there is price, the local dealers that were around some time ago would pay approx. 1/3 their asking price. You see, if the controller goes out the minute you power it up, its not such a hit.
That is a better operating model...think like a dealer.

Wow, all the talk of litigation, I would not want to sell you a bicycle.
 
Wow, all the talk of litigation, I would not want to sell you a bicycle.

I was afraid my question would come off like that. I’m not that way. Probably though should at least know a lawyer to call if I ever needed one. But finding out after the fact that I should have handled the paperwork and wording differently is all I am trying to avoid. Idk it’ll be fine. I do like the idea of going up on rigging day.
 
When I bought the lathe I discuss in my previous post I had a video of the dealer going over the machine. You can hear them talking and they didn't know how to get the spindle running. These are not the people I would let give me heads up as to issues. They wouldn't know either.

The inspection guy from the cnc repair company checked alignments and subsystems and all kinds of stuff. Stuff I will be honest I am not sure I could do today after years for running it.
 
last machine i bought was just from pictures. I made sure that i had emails stating what was there and that everything was in good runing order. At least with emails from the seller you have some paper trail stating what’s there and condition. If you get it and it isn’t what you agreed on then you at least have a record of them saying stuff which you don’t have if it’s just a phone call
 
I bought my machine from a dealer and it was alot of money to me, had to get a loan. I got on a plane and went to test drive it in person before finally buying it. It allowed me to gather everything up etc and talk to the guys that would load it, make sure it was blocked and ready for travel as I saw fit. I'd spend the time driving and go up there, it would be well worth it in my opinion.

Part 2; I am consulting with a company setting up their new to them cnc. He bought it sight unseen and had it rigged and shipped pretty much not knowing how it all went down and relied on the seller to get it all ready to go. I wasn't in the picture yet. It showed up a little banged up. The spindle was not blocked up or held stationary at all. They had put the vac pump on the table, threw one strap on it and called it good. Showed up, the pump had slid over and banged into the spindle all the way across the country. They literally threw all the toolholders with tools in them in a milk crate with nothing on or around them. It wasn't anything we couldn't overcome, but if I was there in person it would not have happened. The owner didn't want to take the time to travel to see it, so he spent the time later fixing things and hoping the machine wasn't hurt.

As you have said, these people, while not out to get you, don't have any vested interest in making sure it is handled the way you want it. Take the trip and oversee it or do it yourself.
 








 
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