Can someone tell me what kind of coating is this?
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  1. #1
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    Default Can someone tell me what kind of coating is this?

    img_0796.jpg

    I never seen this kind of coating before. I bought this end mill used, so it's got maybe has some life in it but it probably needs a regrind... What is it and what advantage does it provide?

    I never really seen any real advantage to coatings...

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    Titanium aluminum nitride and it is very good at what it's intended for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    Titanium aluminum nitride and it is very good at what it's intended for.
    While you are not wrong, I do believe you are missing some information,; and that you are being curt/rude because the original poster is likely an amateur from a country you don't appreciate.

    In my experience, standard Titanium Aluminum Nitride coatings are grey in appearance. I believe the end mill pictured is likely Titanium aluminum nitride coated, with a DLC over-coating, specifically tetrahedral amorphous carbon (ta-C) which results in the rainbow hue.

    That having been said, the original poster should probably do more reading and less asking questions (The comment regarding the lack of appreciation for the usefulness of various coatings in regard to efficiency, tool life, cut quality, etc. would indicate a lack of understanding, experience, knowledge etc.

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    Well rather than insult someone for being ignorant about why various coatings are used on end mills (which for low volume machining never makes a difference, to me anyways) why not just give me a BLUF version of what most websites fail to really explain in a satisfactory manner? When I google DLC coatings I get what looks like phD level reading anyhow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taiwanluthiers View Post
    Well rather than insult someone for being ignorant about why various coatings are used on end mills (which for low volume machining never makes a difference, to me anyways) why not just give me a BLUF version of what most websites fail to really explain in a satisfactory manner? When I google DLC coatings I get what looks like phD level reading anyhow.
    As you so strangely put it BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front)you are only insulting yourself with your ignorance.

    You asked "what is the coating and what advantage does it provide". If you were to google "DLC tooling properties", there are countless answers to your question. Heres the top result.

    DLC-coated carbide - KYOCERA UNIMERCO

    Kyocera’s inserts for aluminium are available with DLC coating, increasing tool life and process safety. Kyocera’s range of inserts, PDL025, features an extremely hard coating. The coating is named DLC, an abbreviation for ‘Diamond-Like Carbon’.

    The hard DLC coating is excellent for machining many types of aluminium. It increases tool life and ensures a more controlled wear process, while being resistant to edge build-up. That results in an excellent surface finish and high process safety.

    Benefits
    Reliable and efficient machining of aluminium
    Long tool life
    High surface quality
    Wide range

    Features
    High hardness with Kyocera’s “Proprietary Hydrogen-free DLC Coating”, ensuring long tool life
    Prevents built-up edge
    Excellent surface finish and stable machining
    Optimal chip evacuation due to the coating

    Applications
    Turning
    Milling
    Grooving


    Does that not answer your questions? Perhaps you should cut your losses and join a hobbyist forum where you can hang out with like minded individuals who see no benefit to coated tooling?

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    So I take it you don't like hobbyists who don't machine for a living or who needs to buy expensive cutters because "time is money" and all that?

    If I get insulted for asking questions then I might as well not ask...

    And besides if the cutter needs a regrind by definition the coating is useless anyways.

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    ANY and EVERY forum will have a range of responses ranging from polite to obnoxious, and from useless to very helpful. The stated purpose of this forum is for professional machinists whose time IS money. And the stated non-purpose is for home-shop and beginner's questions.

    That said, folks who let the rude, curt, or obnoxious replies roll off them like water off a duck's back generally get more benefit from a forum, and more helpful responses, even if they're not always the most genteel. You got pointed in the right direction. I suspect that there are explanations of tooling coatings out there that break things down to a more basic level. I won't "Let Me Google That For You", but you could look up Diamond-Like Carbon on wiki for basics.

    By the way, I think one aspect of the web is that people will write stuff that is meaner than anything they would ever say in person to anyone. Sometimes unintentionally. Suggest you let any anger go, and concentrate on benefitting from any information you get here. Not sure i agree with the above (regarding antipathy towards a country) as I've seen rude responses here to folks from everywhere.

    So. You can get angry. Or you can benefit and win. Probably hard to do both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    Titanium aluminum nitride and it is very good at what it's intended for.
    Am I missing something? How is this being rude? It's a direct and qualified answer.

    Best Regards,
    Bob

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    Agree, rjs. A bit terse, but not obnoxious. Writing in to a forum for the first time, and then getting upset when the forum does what many forums do, is not a recipe for winning and getting value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs44032 View Post
    . . .It's a direct and qualified answer. . .
    No, its half an answer. Part of the question is what benefit that coating provides. 'What it's intended for' is as unqualified as you can get. I agree, though, that it isn't particularly rude.

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    Also I just never really saw much benefits to the coatings because the end mills all wear out the same rate, coating or not. I mean to say the coatings just rub off easily, like TiN coatings or anything else really, to me all it really does is make the end mill look better. But then again I don't use CNC so maybe with CNC tooling last much longer and the coatings enhance that.

    It just seems to me sharpness makes a bigger difference than coatings.

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    On cheap coated end mills, the coating is (as you've apparently found) more to make them look expensive than anything else.

    For intermittent hobby use, an end mill is more likely to die from hand feeding, wrong speeds and feeds, lack of coolant where needed, a mismatch of tool and material hardness, too slow a spindle for aluminum, maybe too fast for pre-hard steel, etc. etc. Sure, buy a mid-quality uncoated mill and use it on as many jobs as you can before pitching or re-sharpening it.

    In production use, where an end mill might start in a tool changer and stay there until worn -- with carefully figured speeds, feeds, etc. -- the coating can significantly extend tool life and/or productivity. Folks like Tdmidget reasonably figure that if you were in that situation, you'd want to take the time to look up the pros and cons once you knew the name of the coating.

    Personally, I'm not sure what that coating is and defer to the responses above. If you have a production job, though, the manufacturer's site should help you match tool materials and coatings to the job.

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    I don't know who the manufacturer of this end mill is, it has no markings on the end mill itself.

    Truthfully I bought this end mill cheap (sold at 100 dollars per kg) at a used cutter shop. The end mill should still be good for woodworking, and perhaps milling aluminum. The way I would use end mills they would all die early anyways because I don't really have the money for CNC right now. My new neighbor has 2 CNC machines, and he machines aluminum exclusively. I just plan on regrinding it by hand and use it for wood. The end mill has 2 rather big chips on the flute but the end looks pristine.

    I'm not exactly a hobbyist but rather I use mills in a support role, it is to help me make jigs and fixtures as well as being a stable work platform for various details...

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    there many coating types and they have different advantages. but many cutters experiencing high vibration the edges break off long before the coating wears off.
    .
    thus why somebody might think coating is not of much value. but if you keep vibration within practical limits the coatings allow faster machining and longer tool life. understanding the causes of vibration and preventing excess vibration is a fairly advanced area many beginners fail to understand.
    .
    usually main reasons for coatings is not just longer tool life but the chips stick less to the cutter. often chips sticking when they break free take chunks of the cutting edges with the chips. preventing the chip sticking can really make a big difference at times

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    Quote Originally Posted by taiwanluthiers View Post
    So I take it you don't like hobbyists.
    We like them, they taste like Pork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taiwanluthiers View Post
    ... Truthfully I bought this end mill cheap (sold at 100 dollars per kg) at a used cutter shop. The end mill should still be good for woodworking, and perhaps milling aluminum. ...
    There is nothing wrong with this ... but ...

    If your primary use will be cutting in Aluminum, and IF the coating is indeed TiAlN or AlTiN, then it's not the ideal coating for the job.

    Aluminum has the tendency to stick / chip weld to cutters with Aluminum in their coatings.


    Speaking very generally, TiN (Dark Yellow Gold) / ZrN (Light Gold) / DLC (Dark Gray) would be better coating options for cutting in Aluminum. In many cases, uncoated carbide will perform better since you'll have an inherently sharper edge.

    Also, keep in mind that not every coating serves the same function. Some increase lubricity and some increase surface hardness - some do both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taiwanluthiers View Post
    . . .the end mills all wear out the same rate, coating or not. I mean to say the coatings just rub off easily, like TiN coatings or anything else . . ..
    In reality, this is a completely false statement although it may be true within your personal experience. You really need to use a good quality coated cutter at least once, and use it within its service envelope (the correct material and coating for the material you are cutting). No-name on the cutter = junk. Not to say that everything with a logo is good, but anything without is garbage. (Like my dad used to say, "If they're not proud enough of it to put their name on it. . .") Naturally, inserts are excepted but even these often have at least an ink ID.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taiwanluthiers View Post
    So I take it you don't like hobbyists who don't machine for a living or who needs to buy expensive cutters because "time is money" and all that?

    If I get insulted for asking questions then I might as well not ask..
    Sounds like you got the gist of it!

    You can't run to the defense of "I'm just a hobbiest, why are you jumping down my throat?!?!?" and also make a definitively ignorant statement about the utility of tool coatings. You're either a stone cold machinist who has deep experience to make such a bold, broad statement, or you're a noob who doesn't know which direction is up. Either is fine, but both at once is obnoxious.

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    I would guess the cutter is Amana brand and its their "Spectra" coating for making the end look fancy I believe it comes from a very rare process of dipping the cutter in unicorn poop.

    from Amazon-
    Spektra Extreme Tool Life Coating- nACo coating is a micro-thin ceramic coating which enables the tool's cutting edge to retain crucial sharpness and lubricity. This provides longevity and produces cutting results of the highest quality.

    - Coating prevents high heat and oxidation which is detrimental to cutting tool performance.

    - Multi-colored hues, while attractive, will dissipate upon use and yet coating will remain fully effective.

    - nACo offers approximately 4,500 Vickers for impressive solid hardness on cutting areas of the tool, for an increase up to 2.5 times compared to uncoated bits.

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    2 bit hack info here. you said you planned on resharpening by hand? thats not going to go well and then more less the coating will not matter other then still being inside the flutes


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