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    Default carbo-titanium

    whats the reason for molding carbon fibre with titanium wires? (seems to be the latest development in materials.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    whats the reason for molding carbon fibre with titanium wires? (seems to be the latest development in materials.)
    Examples please ?

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    latest pagani chasis made out of it. but im just after what improvement in what properties this combination might result in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    laters pagani chasis made out of it. but im just after what improvement in what properties this combination might result in.
    Along the outer fibers ? randomly applied anywhere ?

    What special features dose titanium wire bring to the matrix ?

    could be just like "Italian chrome".....

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    Protection against stress cracks causing catastrophic failure?
    Lighter/stronger then steel wire, kinda like rebar in concrete.

    Sounds like a real “race-car” type of modification that would help you push the chassis beyond the limits while still getting you across the finish line in 1 semi solid piece but in reality I agree it’s probably just “Italian chrome” as stated.

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    you can mix carbon fibre with aramid/kevlar.

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    E-modulus of carbon is much higher than Ti, so I oubt the Ti will see load unless the C cracks. Sounds like Foolium.

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    The big advantage of Ti wire reinforcement in a CF composite is the relatively closeness of galvanic properties - i.e. you don't set up a battery corroding the metallic structure.

    So while steel would be a better match from a modulus of elasticity standpoint (still less than CF), Ti won't be damaged over time. And it does give a little safety if you wind up in an accident, due to giving some "cohesion" to a damaged composite structure after a crash (depending on severity, of course).

    For ultimate properties you wouldn't use Ti, like in Formula 1 racecars. But for a "street" car like a Pagani, some justification can be made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    The big advantage of Ti wire reinforcement in a CF composite is the relatively closeness of galvanic properties - i.e. you don't set up a battery corroding the metallic structure.

    So while steel would be a better match from a modulus of elasticity standpoint (still less than CF), Ti won't be damaged over time. And it does give a little safety if you wind up in an accident, due to giving some "cohesion" to a damaged composite structure after a crash (depending on severity, of course).

    For ultimate properties you wouldn't use Ti, like in Formula 1 racecars. But for a "street" car like a Pagani, some justification can be made.
    Now the voice of reason.

    Thank you for that.

    Would it be like a mesh ? or just straight wires ?

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    it is just a novel "performance" word to add to the sales brochure, and some added weight to the car, because the regular carbon fiber is just too casual these days... lads came to wash the facade of the building I work in, 5 stories, and they used 50-60mm CF tubes to reach the top floors from the ground, you wouldn't want your car made of the common CF that peons use every day, would you? especially considering the 2mil (AFAIR) price tag of that car

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    My guess is it’s just another sales gimmick. People believe it is some kind of wonder material, it’s not. Stronger than steel? Bullshit! It fits squarely between aluminum and steel for mechanical properties. Ti shines at elevated temperatures. Ti holds its strength at temps that steel no longer has strength.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Now the voice of reason.

    Thank you for that.

    Would it be like a mesh ? or just straight wires ?
    I think this is the first time you've ever called me a "voice of reason".

    The wires are custom woven in with the CF weave from whoever supplies Pagani, and I "think" it's a mesh like the regular CF fibers, but they may use a unilateral stranding in some particular areas for best effect. What the percentage of Ti to CF is I don't know, that would be an interesting factoid. 10-15% by weight?

    Here's what I found with a quick search, although I'm not sure I believe everything in the Wiki page:

    Carbotanium - Wikipedia

    I don't usually refer to Quora too much, but this does look interesting:

    What would you get when you combine carbon fiber and titanium? - Quora

    A big part of successful composite manufacture is the coatings or "sizing" they put on fibers to ensure bonding to the matrix material, so both the Wiki and Quora articles give some insight there. I never would have guessed Pt was needed to coat Ti for good adhesion - for one thing, I didn't think you could plate Ti!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickyb View Post
    My guess is it’s just another sales gimmick. People believe it is some kind of wonder material, it’s not. Stronger than steel? Bullshit! It fits squarely between aluminum and steel for mechanical properties. Ti shines at elevated temperatures. Ti holds its strength at temps that steel no longer has strength.
    Certainly sales-sexiness is part of the reason, but Ti (in most of the alloys) isn't really ideal for elevated temperature use above 500-600C. It loses strength faster than the ferrous superalloys like A286 (which can be used at 700C), let alone the higher-nickel alloys like 718.

    AMT Advanced Materials Technology GmbH - Titanium high temperature

    https://www.atimetals.com/Products/D..._tds_en_v1.pdf

    Yes, there's the A-12/SR-71, but those made extensive use of Ti for the weight/strength performance knife-edge required for their purpose. Planes like the X-15 required ferrous-based superalloys for the even more extreme temperature environment they experienced.

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    am i dreaming? both materials will fail at the same strain? maybe they should have asked mr. hooke.

    the weird thing is that supposedly the new material is used to add stiffness to the roadster chasis. they say it costs 4.5 times more than the original material used (carbon fiber?). confused.

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    I don't see how the Ti wire can add stiffness for any equivalent of areal weight or weave thickness of the carbon/Ti fabric. That sounds like a little too enthusiastic marketing.

    Perhaps if they're talking just compressive loading it does add some greater columnar stiffness over only CF fibers? Surely not in tensile...

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    The titanium wire(?) might be added to increase impact resistance and a tendency of carbon fiber to shatter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by standardparts View Post
    The titanium wire(?) might be added to increase impact resistance and a tendency of carbon fiber to shatter.

    Or maybe it's the beneficial effect possible on vehicle list price? It's always great when you can operate in the quadrant where the disposable cash curve is still going up while the rational judgement and ability to assess claims curve is going down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    am i dreaming? both materials will fail at the same strain? maybe they should have asked mr. hooke.

    the weird thing is that supposedly the new material is used to add stiffness to the roadster chasis. they say it costs 4.5 times more than the original material used (carbon fiber?). confused.
    From what I've read it has to do with increasing the yield strength by utilizing the best features of both materials.

    By engineering it so that both materials fail at the same limit, the resulting composite has a higher yield strength and also retains its properties at higher temperatures.

    With the use of Platinum in the process it's likely this material will always carry a high price tag.

    PS: It's apparently not Titanium wire that's used but rather specially treated particles of it that are bonded to the carbon fibers before weaving.

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    I remember it being wire strands woven into the carbon fabric, nothing more, tried googling now and that is all that shows up

    platinum seems to be involved in a sandwich of titanium foil and carbon fiber fabric laminate, platinum is there to improve bond between the foil and the resin, not exactly clear to me what would the benefits of such a product be, there are high temp resins if you need that, heat resistant coatings if necessary, flexibility would be provided by design and fiber orientation, toughness by adding kevlar, so again - not a lot to justify creating a 450% more expensive material without obvious benefits...

    again, very little shows up apart from Pagani related material when I searched for updated info just now, which kind of speaks for itself about what that combination is useful for

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGTool View Post
    Or maybe it's the beneficial effect possible on vehicle list price? It's always great when you can operate in the quadrant where the disposable cash curve is still going up while the rational judgement and ability to assess claims curve is going down.

    Actually I was very interested until I found out they do not offer an electric powered model.

    Somewhat disturbing they don't exhibit any concern over the impending environmental crisis!


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