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  1. #21
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    I think folks have convinced me to hire an electrican to do the changeover. I do not want to chisel out all the stucco and repalce the box. that is why just a panel change not a box change.Why all the talk about FPE panels? I know they are just as bad but why mention them since I did not?
    Hydrogen filled zeppelins are more dangerous but no one mentioned them yet.
    Bill D
    Bill D

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  3. #22
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    Sorry, my mistake. Saw Zinsco and my brain turned it into FPE. They're almost interchangeable in terms of risk.

    FPE cheated on their UL listing. As many as 1 in 3 of their Stab-Loks fail to operate during independent testing. I don't know the full scoop on Zinsco, but I do know they're also known for the same sort of failures to trip.

    The Danger of Federal Pacific Circuit Breaker Panels

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    A used pair of lineman's gloves for use in the shop for 240V?

    I have worked with Voltages up to 40,000 and I had one, very simple rule. TURN THE POWER OFF and BE SURE IT IS OFF before doing any work. PERIOD. I would not touch any conductors until a ground strap was hanging on them.

    As for lineman's gloves, new even, I would consider them totally useless unless I also had the knowledge as to how they were to be maintained and inspected before each use. In fact, worse than useless because, if I was not completely familiar with the possible failure modes, then they would be an accident just waiting to catch me.

    Yes, the linemen use the gloves. But the gloves are not the only precautions they use. And they ARE educated on not only how the gloves can fail, but on many other ways the their protections can fail.

    One more thing, in my experience a pair of heavily insulated gloves would be a real hazard when working on the much smaller devices used for 115 and 240 Volt wiring that you will find around the home and shop. It would be crazy to handicap yourself with them. A direct shock is not the only hazard when working with electricity and those bulky gloves would actually make the chances of an accident greater, not less.

    Turn the power OFF and use a LOCK OUT. And E-bay those gloves before you get hurt.

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  6. #24
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    Just for fun:


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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    OFF topic: [Apologies to anyone else ].
    To heck with that apology stuff, this is important

    European FEI / Grand Prix dressage coach (for a number of years till I got injured) + trainer as well as 3 day eventer [addition of Jumping and Cross country.].
    Dressage, hmmph. Overbent, under-impulsed, bad riding (not always but waaaay too often). Teenage girls used to ride western, then it was "english" and now "dressage".

    In general, not impressed

    I do have a pretty talented Western rider and competition roper (card carrying cattle guy from Kentucky) working out of my barn.
    That's what I'm talking about ... western riding with a curb. Shitty horsemanship. I had a boy quarterhorse, you could do anything with him in a snaffle. Even go on trail rides with mares in heat, if you wanted a little excitement. Want to talk impulsion ? just walking becomes piaffe, a contained explosion

    I predominantly ride in a double bridle
    I s'pose that means you are one of the 4% or so who can actually do this .... so for now, you won't go on ignore But not sure why you would want to do that "predominantly" ? I guess if you want to play Lippizaner all the time, but other stuff is more fun.

    If you have good (independent) hands (balance and seat) you can ride in anything and not disturb the horse unduly or hang on it's face.
    If you have good hands and seat and an unruined horse you don't need a curb. But while we're on the subject, ever watch old westerns ? Those suckers could ride. Watch something new and they're bouncing all over the place, like a bobblehead doll. The world just ain't what it used to be

    This guy would make a kick ass polo player
    Your Hanoverian ? Don't you have to stop and turn to play polo ? That's kinda like bringing a Greyhound bus to a road race, no ?

    I know a good trainer that was teaching in Taiwan - pretty crazy program and stories but trying to get a handle on 'English" competitive/ Olympic disciplines... They seem keen to throw themselves at it.
    Better than piano lessons, I guess ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    To heck with that apology stuff, this is important


    Dressage, hmmph. Overbent, under-impulsed, bad riding (not always but waaaay too often). Teenage girls used to ride western, then it was "english" and now "dressage".

    In general, not impressed


    That's what I'm talking about ... western riding with a curb. Shitty horsemanship. I had a boy quarterhorse, you could do anything with him in a snaffle. Even go on trail rides with mares in heat, if you wanted a little excitement. Want to talk impulsion ? just walking becomes piaffe, a contained explosion


    I s'pose that means you are one of the 4% or so who can actually do this .... so for now, you won't go on ignore But not sure why you would want to do that "predominantly" ? I guess if you want to play Lippizaner all the time, but other stuff is more fun.


    If you have good hands and seat and an unruined horse you don't need a curb. But while we're on the subject, ever watch old westerns ? Those suckers could ride. Watch something new and they're bouncing all over the place, like a bobblehead doll. The world just ain't what it used to be


    Your Hanoverian ? Don't you have to stop and turn to play polo ? That's kinda like bringing a Greyhound bus to a road race, no ?



    Better than piano lessons, I guess ....


    [2nd apology to everyone else / extreme apologies.].





    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    Dressage, hmmph. Overbent, under-impulsed, bad riding (not always but waaaay too often). Teenage girls used to ride western, then it was "english" and now "dressage".

    In general, not impressed



    Yeah well there are idiots in all disciplines. I don't teach people to be idiots. ( common sense or uncommonly good sense is rare. esp. in the horse world. )

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    That's what I'm talking about ... western riding with a curb. Shitty horsemanship. I had a boy quarterhorse, you could do anything with him in a snaffle. Even go on trail rides with mares in heat, if you wanted a little excitement. Want to talk impulsion ? just walking becomes piaffe, a contained explosion

    ^^^ I know what you were talking about in your first reframe / pointlessly manipulative statement. I don't use a hackamore nor ride Western (as you presumed) but there are Western riders with very light and good hands that can and do ride in a hackamore.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I s'pose that means you are one of the 4% or so who can actually do this .... so for now, you won't go on ignore But not sure why you would want to do that "predominantly" ? I guess if you want to play Lippizaner all the time, but other stuff is more fun.
    [Facepalm] >>> STOP ! I grew up in the UK's Olympic barn (for Dressage and in part Eventing] of the time AND we actually had Lippizans / Lippizaners that people could ride as we had the X-Hauptberieter from Spanish Riding school in Vienna a guy called Franz Rockowanski BUT he took an interest (to his credit) in more modern moving horses such as Dutch and Danish Warmbloods and the occasional Hanoverian [he was ahead of the curve there for developing the natural movement and athletic capability of larger more powerful competition horses.]

    Hanoverians were predominantly bread for pulling cannons in teams of four ~ for about 300 years (across the battle fields of Europe]. [+ be useful light plow-horse(s) in peace-time and decent cavalry mount in War time.] So they are "Inclined" to pull, even if you retrained the horse to rebalance and swing through it's back and develop self carriage ; a client would complain "He's pulling on my hand he's pulling on my hands" it's like "Yeah, you are not going to be able to undo 300 years of breeding in one day". The Hanoverians are very athletic and powerful ; not every horse has a 'snaffle mouth" it's a kind of myth and in a lot of cases a double bridle or a curb bit with short shanks is MUCH kinder in the right hands than someone killing / crushing the horse's tongue (possibly the most sensitive part of a horse) or someone yanking on the reins (with a snaffle-bit). I like the double on my horse as it used to be required for FEI and Grand Prix tests and I can do far more subtle things (with surgical precision in a more subtle and nuanced way as he doesn't have (what would be a highly prized) snaffle mouth. He's a good horse. I have started horses from scratch that did have a good (snaffle) mouth with correct training and patience.

    In Germany for example / Europe we don't specialize the horses so early and we do gymnastic jumping and work over Caveletti and hack out and do cross country so a talented horse may be given the same start as a 3 day eventer.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    If you have good hands and seat and an unruined horse you don't need a curb. But while we're on the subject, ever watch old westerns ? Those suckers could ride. Watch something new and they're bouncing all over the place, like a bobblehead doll. The world just ain't what it used to be

    ^^^ How to piss a horse trainer off 101 - Good job !


    Unless you have actually trained a lot of horses that is a BS statement by people who can't ride or train.

    As I say not every horse is born with a snaffle mouth. I see (other) clients struggle for years and get nowhere.

    I have to admit a I DOOO like watching the old westerns (very much) even the old Roy Rodger's stuff . A good friend of the family was Vic Armstrong stunt double for Harrison Ford in Indiana Jones - He's the one that did the famous jumping off the horse onto the tank stunt. (back in the day) HE had two lipizzans (amongst other horses) was a good trainer in his own right and studied dressage as a GOOD foundation at the same barn I grew up in (Vic is now a famous stunt coordinator and director from second unit director - not just "Stunt man"). When I was in New Mexico many western riders would ask if I could put a "Dressage" handle to their quarter horses etc. And many Western trainers and FEI / International jumpers that were trainers in their own right have trained under me.

    I predominantly trained trainers WHY because amateur riders - and ARM CHAIR 'theorists" - really piss me off unless said amateur rider has the 'Right stuff" and are serious / sports minded to their craft and horsemanship.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Those suckers could ride. Watch something new and they're bouncing all over the place, like a bobblehead doll. The world just ain't what it used to be
    It's a myth of "Back in the old days things were done better " - If you look at the actual footage from ALL disciplines this is not the case. In dressage horses and riders are of MUCH higher level (internationally) than even 25 years ago , but there's this myth that things were done better 100 years ago, 150, 200, 300, years ago 3000 years ago past Xenophon. It's bunch of BS. We learn from the past but... There are today Good and bad Western riders and ignorant and knowledgeable trainers of all disciplines with varying levels of "Ethics" - (shocking) !

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Your Hanoverian ? Don't you have to stop and turn to play polo ? That's kinda like bringing a Greyhound bus to a road race, no ?
    I have cousin that is medium sized wheel in Polo in Florida / Wellington so I have been out there a number of times for fun riding his horses and some of his clients horses. - Polo is like crack cocaine for a lot of equestrians.

    I don't play professional polo with a 17 hand 2" horse/ Hanoverian (obvi). But he is very maneuverable (That's kind of the point). Typically POLO is played on Thoroughbred mares. I'm down to one horse.

    You misread / mis-interpreted what I wrote - What I meant / said was the Western roping guy - from Kentucky is a HUMAN not a horse. HE (as I was saying) would make an awesome polo player as he's very coordinated and has very good independent hands and seat and does not pull up on the horse like a lot of Western riders. He has a bunch of horses working out of my barn. I used to have about ten to twelve horses of my own in NM. Clients and other projects. Since my back injuries I am down to one horse and will be selling my ranch pretty soon.



    __________________________________________________ __________________________


    @EG if you are into all this get yourself a horse (for YOU); do it - rather than piss off trainer types (on-line) lol.

    Seriously you sound like my mother !

    AND straight up one of the principal reason I never wanted to move to mainland China is that they are not so "Jiggy" with animals in terms of "sport horses" - culturally it's perhaps not a great fit. Even if I had a business based in China I could never live there for that reason. But things are even more different now.

    Taiwan ~ Piano ? Is that a like training a dog to play a piano kind of thing ? I guess that's what you mean ? [or something else cryptic].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just a Sparky View Post
    Just for fun:

    ^^^ That was actually pretty useful / illustrative.

    I did a research project at the Smithsonian (National Air and Space Museum) / (Conservation analytical laboratory while it existed) as part of a research internship straight out of college (first degree as a conservator).

    So my remit / scope was the deterioration of oxidized elastomers mainly focused on the nation's collection of space suits.

    One of the key layers in space suit is the 'Pressure bladder"/ envelope / LAYER that separates the vacuum of space from the astronaut - synthetic and natural blends depending on the era and type of suit (mainly US hardware).

    One of the issues was that the space suits were stored in cold storage to reduce deterioration (Arrhenius equation - roughly every ten degrees (Celsius (sp)) drop lowers a chemical reaction by half ) so it's theoretically possible to extend the "Life" of exhibitable space suit's elastomeric components and other by a factor ten at least.

    The problem is that low temperature storage causes (some/ many) elastomers / and synthetic blends to crystalize. This crystallization cause these thin "Rubber" layers to become increasingly brittle a problem when flexed or bent even through relatively small angles acting as "Stress concentrators" especially for partially deteriorated and increasingly fragile components.

    Oxidized and partially deteriorated elastomers can become very brittle and there is the possible problem of low temperature storage exacerbating mechanical destruction of these various components through crystallization ~ not a million miles away from what went wrong with the Space shuttle challenger's "O" rings for their solid rocket boosters.

    Rubber (as such) esp. natural rubber / blends goes through different phases of deterioration. - First there's this gooey phase and weeping of short chain molecular components and then a second continuous phase of cross linking which make the rubber go hard and "Crunchy" and brittle. The harder areas become more crystalline and more ordered.

    It was previously thought that Oxidized elastomers couldn't crystalize but I was able to prove that in fact THEY CAN. Two year research project. + basic stuff that was new to "Chemistry".

    So at NASM (National Air and Space Museum) /Garber Facility - nearly 30 years ago - we changed the way space suits are brought out of cold storage before being moved or humped about. Basically to de-crystalize these fragile partially deteriorated elastomeric components. - Nation's collection of space suits are one of the very few artifacts that actually return from space, but there are numerous training suits from Mercury, Gemini and Apollo and beyond that have their "own problems".

    So ON TOPIC

    From what we experienced with Armor All and other temporary "Rubber" restoratives they have the long term capability to break apart and basically destroy rubber artifacts.

    Low temperature storage can cause further crystallization and further embrittlement of partially oxidized "Rubbers".

    [Garage- warehouse or truck these gloves could get cold over long periods of time or a few weeks of a winter. Mechanically precipitate very fine fissures and points of weakness that progress in an almost invisible way. ].

    In the case of the lineman high voltage and high power gloves I'd really be super careful about any such "Oils" and ointments to come into contact with the rubber layer / glove inner. IF I had to contend with high voltages / commercial environment - hence the VIDEO that @Just a Sparky cites.

    So OP [@Bill D] bought used or older gloves - doesn't seem like a good solution for their original intent*.

    That high voltage finding the pin-hole in the video was pretty graphic - ironically my old supervisor at the Smithsonian would be a goto on this as she did her Ph.D research on high voltage insulators and polymeric design + various surface effects thereof.
    (she's probably in her late 70s now).
    __________________________________________________ _______________

    * Time willing maybe I dig up the materials for this, rubber glove liner - which / what rubber composition and fillers and components + processes and additional layers (if any), + whatever "Oil" / leather oil that "Peeps" feel inclined to use Neat's or other wise.

    LATER

    ________________

    Tangentially does make me wonder (very obliquely / remotely) what caused the ChemTool fire - basic assumptions industrially / OSHA - This thread has opened my eyes to High Voltage and High Power not a great mix for random chemical processes and procedures - in a counter intuitive way.

    "Oiling" stuff always seems like a good idea.

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    Pull the meter, or do it right and hire it out.

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    Since you don't bother to clean out your inbox ... (attention to detail counts when cutting metal) : we have a fundamental disagreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    [Facepalm] >>> STOP ! I grew up in the UK's Olympic barn ...
    Don't really care, royals had imbecile children also, growing up somewhere means nothing

    Hanoverians were predominantly bread for pulling cannons in teams of four ... The Hanoverians are very athletic and powerful ; [B]not every horse has a 'snaffle mouth" ...
    You drive horses with your ass and legs, not hands. Get his hind legs underneath and instead of being a puller he'll become a prancer. If you have a seat you don't need to torture a horse's mouth.

    ^^^ How to piss a horse trainer off 101 - Good job !
    I don't know you, so won't comment ... but I do disagree with your approach. And I've seen plenty enough bad trainers to not fall for that "I am the great Swindoozee Horse Trainer" crap.

    @EG if you are into all this get yourself a horse (for YOU); do it - rather than piss off trainer types (on-line) lol.
    Trainer-types suck balls, even worse than machinists. But I did have a horse, thank you very much ... quarter-horse stallion, thick neck, manners like Judith Martin, smarter than most machinists (apparently that's not saying much), best friend ever. Was like hanging out with your best buddy, who just happened to be 900 lbs of dynamite.

    Seriously you sound like my mother !
    Good. Maybe between the two of us we can knock some sense into your thick skull

    AND straight up one of the principal reason I never wanted to move to mainland China is that they are not so "Jiggy" with animals in terms of "sport horses"
    No, they aren't good with animals. No experience. Animals are to eat ... one of the drawbacks of the area.

    But now that you bring it up, we had two K&T horizontals brought into a joint venture in Haerbin. Wintertime, snow. Machines were in large crates. The riggers came in with two shaggy-ass ponies and some wire cables and pulleys, dragged the machines into the shop via horsepower I wanted to send a video to K&T, they'd have got a kick out of it but no smartphones then. Shaggy northern ponies were still commonly used for pulling carts on the street then. And there were steam locomotives in service a block from our shop ... more than once got yelled at "get off the tracks you idiot foreigner !" for standing a foot away as a train passed.

    You are half-correct - yes, technique is better now, but life is about half as much fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    <snip>


    You drive horses with your ass and legs, not hands. Get his hind legs underneath and instead of being a puller he'll become a prancer. If you have a seat you don't need to torture a horse's mouth.
    <snip>
    So now you are trying to teach a GP coach /FEI trainer how to ride a horse...

    Your hubris literally knows no bounds.

    Dude - there are about 250,000 (bat sh*t) crazy old (horse ) ladies that you can hang out with on-line ON HORSE FORUMS, I'm sure there's at least twenty or thirty you could choose from.

    I'm sure they would love you !

    Go there ...

    (If you want to talk about how to ride and train horses to international levels and compete.).

    I'm sure Steffen Peters and Klaus Balkenhol are hanging on your every word and are taking notes.

    There are millions of back-yard weekend warriors that would love to join you in your musings and take to task these "Evil" trainers and coaches.

    Knock yourself out.

    I'm not going to engage further in any discourse RE: "The training of horses".

    Boundaries !

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    So now you are trying to teach a GP coach /FEI trainer how to ride a horse...
    No, I disagree with you. And I don't give a crap what Immensely Important Titles you give yourself. There's plenty of shysters in the horse world, too.

    I don't know that you are ... but getting all pushed out of joint because someone has a different view than you speaks loudly.

    Your hubris literally knows no bounds.
    You aren't god, dear. Other people are allowed to have a different opinion. But if we have to resort to auctorite, then I'll put Podhajsky over you any day of the week.

    Sorry, not trying to be insulting but you're being an ass.

    Neatsfoot oil works fine on leather.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    <snip>

    I don't know that you are ... but getting all pushed out of joint because someone has a different view than you speaks loudly.


    You aren't god, dear. Other people are allowed to have a different opinion.

    But if we have to resort to auctorite, then I'll put Podhajsky over you any day of the week.

    Sorry, not trying to be insulting but you're being an ass.

    Neatsfoot oil works fine on leather.
    Podhajsky IS one my main inspirations and touch stones you f*ckt*rd ! [Rockawansky was his right hand man] Most of what I do is derived from classical training. But much of what the SRV did later came from Polak.

    Perfect example of a series of pointless and manipulative reframes.(from you) Yet again ...

    Triangulating a notional audience + pissing contest

    What is the point ?

    So what is it that you really want to talk about ?


    Not with me, but seems you are getting "Twitchy" when pressures start to Amp up (home and abroad); as have previously been the case.

    So what's going on EG ?


    What is daily life like where you are and what's going on ?

    What's the word on the street ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    So what's going on EG ?

    What is daily life like where you are and what's going on ?
    It's boring but pretty, wild flowers are blooming, with two vaccine shots the masks are coming off, which is nice, but prices are ridiculous and I miss the fun of China. I do a little subtle vaccine-promotion but that's out of self-interest, I want to get out of here.

    What's the word on the street ?
    There is no word on the street, you're lucky to find five people in this place. You can make a little conversation with the 300 lb lady at the checkout counter, or some flip observation at Subway with the 250 lb tattoed girl, but that's about it. Unless you want to hrrr hrrr hrr about smoke-belching noisy diesel pickups with some slack-jawed yokel ...

    Waiting for the borders to open again ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    I think folks have convinced me to hire an electrican to do the changeover.
    Good call.

    My first construction job was with a small electrical contractor doing new high dollar homes- I went from pulling wires to wiring up the whole place from panel on up.
    I am passably ok with the sundry circuits around the shop and like but have had some close calls over the years doing middle of the night stuff with 440 service in commercial buildings etc.

    I pulled a panel hot like you are thinking of doing and did not think I should have been anywhere near that sort of job- It is good to listen when you are thinking you are out of your depth on a job.

    Hot conductors- way back when when wiring up those frame houses it was routine to just lick a finger and tap a wire to see if it was hot.
    You could tell the voltage as well.

    Kids...

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    I think what I will do is load up the new panel with the correct breakers and make a template to drill the mounting holes. Mill the deadfront cover for height and width, make spacers of the correct thickness etc. Then hire an electrician to pull the meter and do the install.
    I realize they will not be happy to lose markups on selling me breakers etc. So I will have to find one who will do it as a side job for cash.
    Bill D

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    Reasearch says that a smart meter will call home within 1.5 hours or less if it is pulled. Then the power company may or may not come see what is wrong. Not clear if pulling the meter for say 30 minutes will send a warning or not. Also not clear if plugging the meter back in will allow it to work correctly or if poco needs to come onsite and reset it.
    I suppose every power company has different rules so another good reason to get a pro involved.
    Bill D

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    If you had PG&E power you would just wait a month or so for the next outage and swap it out while they're trying to find which particular problem area shorted. Last time it got windy the underground cable feeding our chunk of the grid shorted. Blamed on the wind.

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    Wait, why are you comfortable hot swapping entire breaker panels but suddenly aren't interested in pulling a meter?

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    Call the utility and say you are doing tree work in the area and need the line dropped, and then re-connected.

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    Now you are trying to hire an Electrician for cash, but not have him pull a permit and have an inspection?
    In these difficult times, do you realize how busy Electricians are?

    https://www.stanion.com/ASSETS/DOCUM...5K_Catalog.pdf

  26. Likes Just a Sparky liked this post

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