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Career: Tool and Die vs. Millwright

iamdustin

Plastic
Joined
Mar 6, 2014
Location
Ontario Canada
Hey guys I am 18 and going to Conestoga college (Ontario) in September. I have been accepted for both millwright and tool and die, but cannot choose which one to take. From what I've learned tool and die seems more creative but hard to get a job in. Millwright's seem like they are needed everywhere and will never have to worry about not having a job. Its hard to decide which one I should choose. What are your opinions?

Thanks, Dustin
 
You need to decide for sure what your interests are. If you realy enjoy the technical close tolerance work and fine finishing then Tool and Die. A millwright is more general and usualy works as an equipment mechanic.

Google a definition of both to get a general definition.
Actualy "millwright" came as a name for the mechanics who would erect windmills.

I have done both and prefer working as a machinist and that has been the bulk of my career.

Millwright work is usualy far more dangerous and work can be in extreme cold or heat. It is usualy always more physicaly demanding.
Tool and Die makers just pull out all of their hair! That's about the most physical abuse there is.
 
If you are good with numbers tool and die might be better for you. If you have size 16 shoes and a size 3 hat go with millwright.

Our plant had lots of different trades. The trade that was a real peach was electrician. You don't need to spend 10K on tools and if you decide to go out on your own some day, you get your license and go to work. You don't need to buy tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of machinery. Your market is also much larger. Almost everyone needs an electrician sometimes but very few people actually need a tool and diemaker directly.

Don't get me wrong. I love the tool and die trade and am glad that is the route that I took. I love being creative and there is not much creativity in the electrical trade that I have seen.

Good luck in your quest.

Big B
 
I was a tool and die maker for many years and also fortunate to work with millwrights at a couple of locations. You're correct in your career descriptions, tool and die is the art of the dinosaur (it hurts me to say that too). Your choice should begin with an estimation of your nature and what you're seeking in a career. Tool and die will require you to be proficient at math, particularly geometry/trigonometry. Millwrights don't need math quite as often beyond add/subtract/multiply/divide. Investment in tooling will depend upon where you go and what you're required to purchase out of your own pocket but it can easily run into the thousands for either vocation. The physical work is much greater for a millwright than a toolmaker, I'm no stranger to hard physical work and there were several times I was glad that I wasn't required to perform a removal/installation that the millwrights had to. Many toolmakers are somewhat OCD by nature as you're encouraged to fuss over small (important) details. Many are just the "Type A" personality sorts. Millwrights are not as obsessive/compulsive and usually easier to get along with (just my opinion here). Tool and die will require you to be perfect (+/- .0002) every day, a millwright will have a variety of duties that may not resemble what the duties from yesterday were. A millwright may be required to wade in up to the armpits to get the job done, a toolmaker usually needs to work in a clean surrounding with clean tooling. Being a toolmaker can open the door to many areas of manufacturing, being a millwright can lead to starting your own contracting company. If I had to do it all over again I'd still choose to have been a toolmaker, that's just part of my nature. It would be hard for me to advocate that same path for you, it's a lot tougher and there's a lot less die stamping going on these days. The hours can be long, the health risks are very real, and the pay isn't nearly enough for what is required of you in either vocation. What do you want out of this? What do you like about either? What would you dislike about either? How do you feel about learning? I can almost guarantee that when you're through with the required college classes you'll have a bare minimum amount of knowledge to begin, to excel you'll need more than the minimum. What are you good at?
 
You need to decide for sure what your interests are. If you realy enjoy the technical close tolerance work and fine finishing then Tool and Die. A millwright is more general and usualy works as an equipment mechanic.

Google a definition of both to get a general definition.
Actualy "millwright" came as a name for the mechanics who would erect windmills.

I have done both and prefer working as a machinist and that has been the bulk of my career.

Millwright work is usualy far more dangerous and work can be in extreme cold or heat. It is usualy always more physicaly demanding.
Tool and Die makers just pull out all of their hair! That's about the most physical abuse there is.

Thanks for the advice! My highschool manufacturing teacher also said he loved being a general machinist. Definitely a hard choice with so mamy options out there
 
If you are good with numbers tool and die might be better for you. If you have size 16 shoes and a size 3 hat go with millwright.

Our plant had lots of different trades. The trade that was a real peach was electrician. You don't need to spend 10K on tools and if you decide to go out on your own some day, you get your license and go to work. You don't need to buy tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of machinery. Your market is also much larger. Almost everyone needs an electrician sometimes but very few people actually need a tool and diemaker directly.

Don't get me wrong. I love the tool and die trade and am glad that is the route that I took. I love being creative and there is not much creativity in the electrical trade that I have seen.

Good luck in your quest.

Big B

Thanks! Thats my worry, it doesn't seem like there is much demand for tool and die makers, but I love the idea of all the different things you could possibly make and the precision of it.
 
Like both of the above I have done both tool & die first then millright for a time. Doing the T&D first made the Millright easier doing the T&D also makes you anal. After awhile a framers carpenter tolerances can give you a nervous twitch when someone says + or - 0.25" is close enough. Unfortunately, if you go the T&D route it nevers wears off. One more thing when you're 100 ft. up in January in Canada the Tool & Die sure sounds cozy.:scratchchin:

Nowdays the cnc side of of T&D helps you hit tolerances unheard of 40 years ago. :codger:
 
I was a tool and die maker for many years and also fortunate to work with millwrights at a couple of locations. You're correct in your career descriptions, tool and die is the art of the dinosaur (it hurts me to say that too). Your choice should begin with an estimation of your nature and what you're seeking in a career. Tool and die will require you to be proficient at math, particularly geometry/trigonometry. Millwrights don't need math quite as often beyond add/subtract/multiply/divide. Investment in tooling will depend upon where you go and what you're required to purchase out of your own pocket but it can easily run into the thousands for either vocation. The physical work is much greater for a millwright than a toolmaker, I'm no stranger to hard physical work and there were several times I was glad that I wasn't required to perform a removal/installation that the millwrights had to. Many toolmakers are somewhat OCD by nature as you're encouraged to fuss over small (important) details. Many are just the "Type A" personality sorts. Millwrights are not as obsessive/compulsive and usually easier to get along with (just my opinion here). Tool and die will require you to be perfect (+/- .0002) every day, a millwright will have a variety of duties that may not resemble what the duties from yesterday were. A millwright may be required to wade in up to the armpits to get the job done, a toolmaker usually needs to work in a clean surrounding with clean tooling. Being a toolmaker can open the door to many areas of manufacturing, being a millwright can lead to starting your own contracting company. If I had to do it all over again I'd still choose to have been a toolmaker, that's just part of my nature. It would be hard for me to advocate that same path for you, it's a lot tougher and there's a lot less die stamping going on these days. The hours can be long, the health risks are very real, and the pay isn't nearly enough for what is required of you in either vocation. What do you want out of this? What do you like about either? What would you dislike about either? How do you feel about learning? I can almost guarantee that when you're through with the required college classes you'll have a bare minimum amount of knowledge to begin, to excel you'll need more than the minimum. What are you good at?

Yeah its definitely a hard decision! I don't mind physical labour, like you said I like how tool and die can open many doors, it also seems like with tool and die you could start your own business. Millwright is mostly appealing because they are high in demand. I spoke to a plant superintendent at Linamar and asked him which one he would recommend he said without a doubt millwright, they cant hire enough millwrights, the pay is good and you'll always have a job. I also like the fact that it seems like everyday as a millwright is different.

I'm pretty creative, precise, I've also always enjoyed taking things apart and building things. I want to learn a trade that I can also take home, I know i wont be making molds at home or fixing cnc machines but i'm sure you guys know what I mean. Money is a pretty big motive for me, i want to make or have the potential to make a good amount of money. But I also want to look forward to going into work.

Thanks for the advice!
 
Well, I am a millwright,and I mildly resent the disparaging remarks :toetap: As in ALL trades/vocations you are the only limit. Unlike the narrow focus of tool and die,you may be asked to perform nasty hard work,however you shouldn't limit your skillset,(right boys!!:toetap:). You may also be asked to perform very focused,and highly skilled work.(Any good with PLC's,hydraulics,pneumatic controls,alignment,vibration analysis,etc??) You are that limitation. The beauty to the trade is freedom. Acquire the skills and you can work darn near anywhere!
 
Hey guys I am 18 and going to Conestoga college (Ontario) in September. I have been accepted for both millwright and tool and die, but cannot choose which one to take. From what I've learned tool and die seems more creative but hard to get a job in. Millwright's seem like they are needed everywhere and will never have to worry about not having a job. Its hard to decide which one I should choose. What are your opinions?

Thanks, Dustin


Run Forrest,Run
 
Millwrong,

I'm not suggesting that industry could operate without both millwrights and tool and diemakers. And I will let it go at that.



Well, I am a millwright,and I mildly resent the disparaging remarks :toetap: As in ALL trades/vocations you are the only limit. Unlike the narrow focus of tool and die,you may be asked to perform nasty hard work,however you shouldn't limit your skillset,(right boys!!:toetap:). You may also be asked to perform very focused,and highly skilled work.(Any good with PLC's,hydraulics,pneumatic controls,alignment,vibration analysis,etc??) You are that limitation. The beauty to the trade is freedom. Acquire the skills and you can work darn near anywhere!
 
Hi

Tool and dies can be brought in from anywhere. You are competing against the lowest cost supplier on the planet.
Millwright work is on-site. There will always be a need for someone to install stuff regardless of where it has come from. As machine complexity, sensitivity and cost rises, the skill goes up.

If you go the millwright path, I would recommend you aim for expensive plant, specifically gas and steam turbines. If you are working on an engine worth $$millions your fee is insignificant. If you are good you can charge more and no one will complain.

Not long ago, I organised a team to fly out from the USA to complete an oil flush on an engine. That cost over half a million but it was considered good value because they had the equipment, skills and experience.
 
dazz,

If they can get dies built anywhere they can fly experts in to the US or Europe from India or China and have the same effect. Be good at whatever you do and you will always have a bright future. Being a half of a world away isn't the problem that it use to be.

If you can't bring Mohamed to the mountain, then bring the mountain to Mohamed. Or something like that.

Hi

Tool and dies can be brought in from anywhere. You are competing against the lowest cost supplier on the planet.
Millwright work is on-site. There will always be a need for someone to install stuff regardless of where it has come from. As machine complexity, sensitivity and cost rises, the skill goes up.

If you go the millwright path, I would recommend you aim for expensive plant, specifically gas and steam turbines. If you are working on an engine worth $$millions your fee is insignificant. If you are good you can charge more and no one will complain.

Not long ago, I organised a team to fly out from the USA to complete an oil flush on an engine. That cost over half a million but it was considered good value because they had the equipment, skills and experience.
 
Well, I am a millwright,and I mildly resent the disparaging remarks :toetap: As in ALL trades/vocations you are the only limit. Unlike the narrow focus of tool and die,you may be asked to perform nasty hard work,however you shouldn't limit your skillset,(right boys!!:toetap:). You may also be asked to perform very focused,and highly skilled work.(Any good with PLC's,hydraulics,pneumatic controls,alignment,vibration analysis,etc??) You are that limitation. The beauty to the trade is freedom. Acquire the skills and you can work darn near anywhere!

I hope my post wasn't one you took as disparaging , as you put it.

I work daily with millwrights just as I have worked daily in other companys with high tech aviation engineers and tool designers etc.

I truly believe and will support the fact that millwrights are valuable and knowledgable in all respects to get the work done they have to deal with.

I can say the same for all machinists (mostly) and tool makers.


I was only pointing out the vast differences of the two trades.

A millwright at a hydro electric plant does similar work to a sawmill machinist but one may not qualify for both jobs. Specific job experience is important to employers as well.
 
scojen kind of hits the nail on the head. A T&D maker does not, as in the past, actually MAKE tools and dies. He programs a computer to direct a machine to do what his predecessors did by hand. Once the program is input, he can go on to the next program. The machine runs without him.

Millwright is hands on. He has to be there, do that. Physical work. I am not a big fan of the Millwright. I worked in Westinghouse and US Steel.

Westinghouse, Millwright was a heavy lifter. I was Machinery Repair. They came to help me when there was a heavy lift, though I could have done without them. DUMB!

US Steel, my papers qualified me to repair EOTs. All graduate US Steel Apprentices, even dumber. Hammer mechanics. 100 ton jacks and 20# sledges. "Keep 'em running till the next outage."

You can get a job anywhere with actual Millwright papers. T&D, there are only so many needed. You can take Millwright papers to the oil fields. They won't even ask you to sit down with T&D.

IS there actually a T&D man who still uses specially formed files to perfect a die, or is it all touch up the program?

millwrong,

"Well, I am a millwright,and I mildly resent the disparaging remarks As in ALL trades/vocations you are the only limit. Unlike the narrow focus of tool and"
I did not mean to denigrate you, BUT, I worked with some pretty dumb papered people.

I had one crane that was rebuilt, and it shook like hell. My crew went to try to fix it. I looked at the gears, open, and said misaligned, I'll show you. 2 of 3 said they did not care, one man said show me. Senior on the crew, though seniority meant nothing, in my department. He stayed, and I laid a piece of cold rolled in the teeth, and he instantly saw the incorrect engagement. The outboard bearing was relocated about 4" off. Man who directed that had run of the mill, boss's pet.

You will always have that. Be it right or wrong, the pet will overrule, no matter how dumb he is. Bosses have suckups.

George
 
Whichever you choose, strive to be the very best one that ever lived. The top hands in the shop get assigned to the most challenging situations, which typically are also the most rewarding.

If you end up in the moldmaking or toolmaking trade, if you have a choice early in your career between building new molds/tools/dies, or repairing them, I'd recommend the repair route. That may sound counter-intuitive, and I have to admit that I jumped at the chance to build new molds instead of repairing them. But when I eventually worked my way into a mold design position I wished I had chosen the repair route because that would have exposed me to far more examples of what worked, what failed, and various, different ways to skin a cat.

-Jeff
 
I did my apprenticeship in a cement mill as a Fitter, Turner, Machinist (UK, Australia, New Zealand) similar to what you call millwright as far as I can see. Anyway, when I was an apprentice an old English guy said to me "where there's muck there's money" and he was right, if you don't mind getting out in the plant and getting a bit dirty you'll make money, I did. And you can still get in the shop for some machining too.
And as the previous poster wisely said "be the best there is" you'll never regret that.
 
gmatov,

"scojen kind of hits the nail on the head. A T&D maker does not, as in the past, actually MAKE tools and dies. He programs a computer to direct a machine to do what his predecessors did by hand. Once the program is input, he can go on to the next program. The machine runs without him."

Predecessors ? I did them by hand up until 1980 spent more time in front of a die filer than I care to remember not to mention the Colt edm and the K&T rotary head mill made enough progressive dies to last a life time. :codger:
 








 
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