Cincinnati Milling Machines

ElCouso · Aug 11, 2018

Hi guys, hope you don't mind educating me on this.

I've been looking at a few used milling machines, and a few that would pop up from time to time are some massive Cincinnati vertical and horizontal mills. They seem VERY heavy duty and they have big motors (often 15 HP). They seem to be the milling machine counterpart of those super heavy duty Monarchs or Pacemakers from that era.

Has anybody here operated one of those? What were your thoughts on them? They seem like a good fit for milling power plant parts. Most of them look pretty beat up, but I'm sure that with a good reconditioning and good lubrication they'll last a hundred years.

Luis

Richard King · Aug 11, 2018

Yes to all of the above. I prefer a K&T Mill. K&T is also more friendly to take apart. I always said Cincinnati's were designed by an Engineer who never had to do field work and the K&T was. For an example, the knee gearcase has to be lowered from under the knee. You have to lay on your back to loosen the bolts. On a K&T the knee gear case comes out horizontally toward the operator, so you can sit on a chair to loosen the bolts. Both will do the job, HOG material and be accurate. :-)

Cinc. Has GREAT manuals and they give you a step by step when dismantling it and K&T shows photo's of parts assuming you can figure it out "how to".

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 11, 2018

The two best jobbing shop milling machines I ever worked on. I'd take either a ' Cincy " or a " K&T " over anything else any day. Well designed and made to last a man's working lifetime.

" Huron's " are good but hard to find and if you need a really big machine " Kendall & Gent " or " Noble & Lund " were also very good over here.

Having said that buying a used milling machine is always a gamble. I repaired a big " Cincy " no 4 horizontal a while ago for a pal. It looked to be in great condition but coolant had got into the knee and rotted the mechanism. It was repairable then but parts were expensive. He'd got it in exchange for an unpaid bill so he was happy to pay for the work.

Regards Tyrone.

JRIowa · Aug 11, 2018

Don't be surprised if this thread is locked. You need to read the posting rules.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...inform-what-your-topic-actually-about-307648/

Doug must have the weekend off.
JR

jackal · Aug 11, 2018

Both are good mills. I've ran the Cincis that had the angle head, etc. They were nice.
My preference is the KT ,though.
It was easier to find overarms, etc. local for the KT.

ElCouso · Aug 11, 2018

jackal said:
Both are good mills. I've ran the Cincis that had the angle head, etc. They were nice.
My preference is the KT ,though.
It was easier to find overarms, etc. local for the KT.

Yes the problem with those golden age machines is that they are pretty much parts-derelict. It'll be a matter of being patient and finding a really nice one.

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johnoder · Aug 11, 2018

Cincy started making them in 1884 and K&T in 1898 - so there is an amazing variety - from really antique to as modern as you want - simple at first and getting rapidly amazingly complex

If there is anything broken, you can't buy it at anything approaching an affordable cost - that is why the scrap yards are full of them

But a good one can really take off the metal. They have been doing that for over a hundred years - like this K&T over 75 years ago. Text says 1/8 X 6" cut at 40 inches per minute

Mike C. · Aug 12, 2018

Still blows the CNC guy's mind to see me take a one pass full depth .200" cut with a 14mm endmill in 420 stainless with the big Cincy #3 vertical and it's not even making a sound. Set the speed and feed right, make sure the work is clamped DAMNED tight and let her eat. You just have to bump the key in with a plastic hammer.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 13, 2018

Mike C. said:
Still blows the CNC guy's mind to see me take a one pass full depth .200" cut with a 14mm endmill in 420 stainless with the big Cincy #3 vertical and it's not even making a sound. Set the speed and feed right, make sure the work is clamped DAMNED tight and let her eat. You just have to bump the key in with a plastic hammer.

Top quality machines. I wonder why they aren't still dominating the CNC milling machine market. Having said that I heard one or two bad stories regarding later machines coming out of the Birmingham UK factory.

Regards Tyrone.

thermite · Aug 13, 2018

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
Top quality machines. I wonder why they aren't still dominating the CNC milling machine market. Having said that I heard one or two bad stories regarding later machines coming out of the Birmingham UK factory.

Regards Tyrone.

"The Mill" - Cincinnati Milacron - Top management saw the handwriting on the wall for subtractive machining, CNC or otherwise, and made a conscious decision to exit that industry and put all their resources into plastic moulding technology instead.

They were not wrong.

They are still with us, yet today, still HQ'ed in Cinccinati, still in that plastics business, still making money on sales of over a billion $US a year:

About Milacron | Milacron

https://investors.milacron.com/~/me...uarterly-results/earnings-release-q2-2018.pdf

All *I* can afford is their pink slime. "Cimcool Center-Saver"!

ElCouso · Aug 13, 2018

With the added difficulty of the massive weight, do y'all think a Cincinnati or a K&T will be harder to rebuild than a lathe of that era? There's not a whole lot of info dedicated specifically to working on mills, but the main idea can be transferred to any other kind of machine.

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thermite · Aug 13, 2018

ElCouso said:
With the added difficulty of the massive weight, do y'all think a Cincinnati or a K&T will be harder to rebuild than a lathe of that era? There's not a whole lot of info dedicated specifically to working on mills, but the main idea can be transferred to any other kind of machine.

Rebuild? Of course there is more to a mill than a lathe. Mass is only part of that.

See Richard King's post. No joke. Go K&T or go European.
Plenty of stout mill rebuilds on PM and limitless SMALL ones.

K&T, Oerlikon-Italia, Rambaudi, B&S, Gorton, older SMALL(ER)Cinncy.

I don't recall any of the newer, larger Cinncy ones being DIY refurbed. The odd partial repair only.

Firms used to hire those done. Or do without.

Richard would probably have younger, more flexible Alex under there these days, but neither of them working for just beer. These were akin to the Aircraft Carriers in a fleet. Non-trivial, costs commensurate, tooling, too.

"condition, condition, etc."

And careful planning, yah?

ElCouso · Aug 13, 2018

Thanks man! when I finally do the shopping will try to aim mostly towards K&Ts... Will need to keep it in good condition and maintainability is definitely a must-have.

I bought the reconditioning book from RK's ebay store last week, along with the DVDs. Once I digest it will know better on how to spot the condition of the machines that sometimes can go unnoticed until too late.

Sincere thanks to y'all for sharing your thoughts.

Luis

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 13, 2018

ElCouso said:
With the added difficulty of the massive weight, do y'all think a Cincinnati or a K&T will be harder to rebuild than a lathe of that era? There's not a whole lot of info dedicated specifically to working on mills, but the main idea can be transferred to any other kind of machine.

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There's more work in a mill but in some ways there's less to go wrong. Unless the machine has been abused of course. Coolant in the knee was a regular problem I dealt with. Clutch adjustment, lubrication starvation on the ways. If the " man with the can " was doing his job most things looked after themselves.

Two guys on here have done a good job on milling machine re-furbs that I'm aware of. " Sachmanram " on a British " Cunliffe & Croom" and " Turbine Builder " on an Italian " Rambaudi " .
There was also a guy in Texas working on an " Oerlikon " I think recently and another guy in Eastern Europe working on a " TOS " I think a year or two back. Both blokes were doing good work.

I say re-furb and not re-build because they had stripped the machines down, replace all worn parts, cleaned and re-painted etc, done a really good job but had left the ways in their existing condition.

A proper re-build also entails bringing the ways back into factory condition.

The cynic in me thinks that reading the books etc gives you just enough knowledge to be dangerous but I have been known to be wrong.

Regards Tyrone.

thermite · Aug 13, 2018

ElCouso said:
I bought the reconditioning book from RK's ebay store last week, along with the DVDs. Once I digest it will know better on how to spot the condition of the machines that sometimes can go unnoticed until too late.

Recall for a moment what Rich said about the knee gearbox? Can't fix busted gears or dog-clutches with a Biax or a hand scraper.

Gears have to be made - many have been by those here who are in the business. Not a cheap process.

Jump into too large a mill? It's like acquiring an old castle instead of a modest home.

Impressive!

Until you realize you can't afford to heat it, cannot fix the roof leak that is rotting the floors and walls, cannot drain the lake out of the basement, and cannot even afford to pay the taxes.

Research first. Start smaller. Learn more. Live longer. Regret less.

ElCouso · Aug 13, 2018

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
A proper re-build also entails bringing the ways back into factory condition.

Yes! that was my ultimate goal, however I am at level zero when it comes to restoring factory tolerances. My plan was to start my practice on scrapped machines or their parts (they're somewhat plentyful here) where it really doesn't matter much when mistakes are made. Once I'm confident enough on my skill, then jump to the ones that matter.

PS it's nice to know there are fellow turbine builders in this site

ElCouso · Aug 13, 2018

thermite said:
Research first. Start smaller. Learn more. Live longer. Regret less.

Thanks for this, I'm personally very cautious about these things. I didn't plan to move a finger until I'm damn sure of what I'll be doing. We're not mechanically challenged so we can strip it and replace what we can, plus the overhead crane is a plus. What we'll have to fabricate is what worries me, but guess we can make it work. It'll all depend on being patient enough to pick a mill in good enough condition.

thermite · Aug 13, 2018

ElCouso said:
Thanks for this, I'm personally very cautious about these things. I didn't plan to move a finger until I'm damn sure of what I'll be doing. We're not mechanically challenged so we can strip it and replace what we can, plus the overhead crane is a plus. What we'll have to fabricate is what worries me, but guess we can make it work. It'll all depend on being patient enough to pick a mill in good enough condition.

As much as these are about and what they cost to rig, transport, rig-in and install - find one still hooked up and capable of being fully run.

Better yet, scout someone who is planning a CNC upgrade, shop resize, change of product where there is one still MAKING CHIPS, and you can speak with the folks who have BEEN running it.

That will take time. It can still be LESS time than a long, drawn out rebuild that wasn't entirely in the plan.

ElCouso · Aug 13, 2018

thermite said:
Better yet, scout someone who is planning a CNC upgrade, shop resize, change of product where there is one still MAKING CHIPS, and you can speak with the folks who have BEEN running it.

Shared knowledge is the best kind of knowledge. I wouldn't have come up with something like that in a long time. Thanks for the advice!

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thermite · Aug 13, 2018

ElCouso said:
Shared knowledge is the best kind of knowledge. I wouldn't have come up with something like that in a long time. Thanks for the advice!

Implied side-effect is that if no such can be found?

You might not want to be running one EITHER!

I'm serious. One of my favorite "filtering" tools was to ask the vendor of <whatever> which of his happy customers I could send my Director of Engineer to have a chat with.

"Pioneers" y'see, were the ones with arrows in their ass.

Cincinnati Milling Machines

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