Cleaning up My Newest Purchase--Talkisawa TSL1000 Lathe

I just purchased a Takisawa TSL 1000CD lathe that had been stored in a shed under tarps.

It has a lot of rust, and when I saw the pictures in the classified ad it looked like it was too rusty. However, I drove the 180 miles round trip to look at it, and found that the ways were actually in pretty good shape. The chuck and other parts were more rusty but I'm hoping the internals will be in good shape.

I pulled the cover off the headstock and all the gears were in great shape--no chipped teeth and no rust. The oil was halfway up the sight glass so that helped things for sure.





So, I now have some questions... I've done a search throughout the forums and have come up empty...

1. The manual specs Mobil Vactra #2 for the ways, and Mobile Velocite #6 for the headstock, carriage, etc. Quantity wise it says "2.5" for the headstock, and ".5" for the apron--no units. I assume this is liters... can anyone confirm this. Are there any other lubes that you'd recommend versus the Mobil products?

2. The lathe has a 2-speed (3 hp and 5hp) 3 phase motor. I want to run the lathe with a VFD...is it practical to run the 2 speed motor with a VFD, or should I get a single speed 5 hp 3phase motor to replace it? I assume the motor speed is ~3,500 rpm as the top spindle speed is 1800 rpm.

3. The tailstock live center has a bad bearing... feels gritty when spinning. I can remove the cover, and see the bearing, but the base of the center is one piece... how do I get the bearing out of it?



4. I'd rather avoid using flood coolant---most of my machining will be one-off parts primarily in aluminum. I have a mist coolant system I've never tried... is it a viable alternative?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions... I've posted some pictures of the lathe, and will post the updates as I go through the process.

Regards,

Utah Smitty

Determine exactly what motor you have now. 2 pole 3600 rpm motors are pretty rare for lathes. Then see if the motor has two separate windings or the more common Dahlander connection that is a single winding motor that drops poles out to change speed. That type of motor is a more difficult fit with a vfd. If that lathe turns out to be in good condition it is quality enough that you should consider going with a phase converter and keeping both the high and low ranges with full torque and hp using the existing motor. If you go single speed, the motor may need to be upsized to handle the low to high range. Gearing will determine what works best. Dave

UtahSmitty said:

1. The manual specs Mobil Vactra #2 for the ways, and Mobile Velocite #6 for the headstock, carriage, etc. Quantity wise it says "2.5" for the headstock, and ".5" for the apron--no units. I assume this is liters... can anyone confirm this. Are there any other lubes that you'd recommend versus the Mobil products?

Click to expand...

I run the Mobil products, which are readily available, but if you prefer another brand, any good quality ISO 68 viscosity way oil will substitute for the Vactra#2, and any good quality ISO 10 viscosity spindle oil will substitute for the Velocite#6.

I am surprised at the Velocite#6, as that's quite a thin oil. I would have expected an ISO 46 or 68 viscosity circulating oil like Mobil DTE Medium or Medium/Heavy.

Or just fix what you gotta, run the lathe enough to know that you need a motor change/VFD before doing it.

Your lathe has the D series chuck mount and 1-1/2" + spindle bore, as opposed to the A-series chuck mount and 1-1/2"- bore - the better of the two. Change gears are different between the versions, too, but you're prob aware of that.

UtahSmitty said:

1. The manual specs Mobil Vactra #2 for the ways, and Mobile Velocite #6 for the headstock, carriage, etc. Quantity wise it says "2.5" for the headstock, and ".5" for the apron--no units. I assume this is liters... can anyone confirm this. Are there any other lubes that you'd recommend versus the Mobil products?

2. The lathe has a 2-speed (3 hp and 5hp) 3 phase motor. I want to run the lathe with a VFD...is it practical to run the 2 speed motor with a VFD, or should I get a single speed 5 hp 3phase motor to replace it? I assume the motor speed is ~3,500 rpm as the top spindle speed is 1800 rpm.

3. The tailstock live center has a bad bearing... feels gritty when spinning. I can remove the cover, and see the bearing, but the base of the center is one piece... how do I get the bearing out of it?

View attachment 334663

4. I'd rather avoid using flood coolant---most of my machining will be one-off parts primarily in aluminum. I have a mist coolant system I've never tried... is it a viable alternative?

Click to expand...

Going by the numbers is going to make this short:

1. Mobil Vactra #2 & #4 are what I use. Quantity of 2.5 quarts for the head stock and .5 quart for the apron, approx. Confirm by draining the old oils and measure the quantities. Should be close to the numbers.

2. Just use the motor in a fixed position. For the size of the machine I would hook it up for 5Hp. Using a VFD with a two speed motor is going to make things complicated.
If you go with a VFD some of the internal wiring on the lathe will have to be altered as well. A RPC?

3. Rinse it out with lacquer thinner and don't spin it too much now or when it's dry. Looks like one I had to replace on a wood lathe because wood dust
and grease make a good paste. Heat the outer shell and the bearing is easier to slide out.

4. A mist is going to get all over the machine. A rust retardation agent is probably going to be in the mist solution so it gives you time to wipe stuff down.
In the meantime the mist is something you don't want to breath. For aluminum machine stuff dry and use WD-40 for the final cuts if you want.

I have a mist sprayer which operates from compressed air. So that means another thing to have on hand, air. And then put up with the noise of a compressor.
Don't use WD-40 that much. Most all aluminum is cut dry here with modern carbide tools.

Yeah, it did seem to be pretty thin. I've seen where some people run Velocite 10, which is a little thicker. But, with winter coming on, the Velocite 6 will probably work fine... I may change up to a little thicker when summer comes.

Regards,

Smitty

Thanks, Rons...

I have a 60 gallon air compressor, but it's in the other room (wood shop) so it's not too noisy for the machine shop... my son does most of the wood shop stuff so he'll have to deal with it, lol!

I tend to cut aluminum dry as well and use WD-40 for those times where a lube is required.

Regards,

Smitty

Takisawa Cleanup and Threading Gears

Thanks, Neil.

I have a 5 hp RPC, so I might be able to spin the chuck to see if there's any inappropriate noises... The lead screw is 6 tpi, and there are 33, 52, 80, 88, and 104 tooth gears--enough to cover the more common Imperial and metric threads. I found a source on eBay that provides Chinese-made gears in different modules and tooth combinations...Prices are really quite good--about $30-$40 each. I'd have to bore the centers to 22mm and install a 4mm keyway, but that's easy enough.

There isn't a provision to cut 13 tpi, which makes it a bummer if trying to thread 1/2" NC, but I found a program on Varmint Al's page that allows you to input the lead screw pitch in inches or mm, and the screw thread in inches or mm, then specify a pitch and it will tell you if your gears will cover that. You can enter about 12 different gear tooth sets so you can mix and match until you find something that will work.

I've attached a screen shot of the program showing gear combinations for 13 tpi...The program works pretty good although it doesn't save your settings so you have to renter the gears each time you run the program. I just did a bunch of different thread pitches and took screenshots so I could refer to them.

Regards,

Smitty

So, I'm making progress on cleaning up the machine, but have a couple questions:

Where is the oil fill hole for the carriage, and the carriage lock?

There are 2 holes on the top of the carriage to the right side of the cross slide. One is closer to the ways and had a loose bolt in it when I bought the lathe. At first I thought it might be the carriage lock, but the bolt just lifted out. There is also another hole a little to the left and towards the front edge that appears to go into the carriage.

I need to clean up the rust/grease mixture form the chucks, collet closer, compound slide, etc. I know I could steel wool or wire brush it all down, but are there easier solutions? I've heard of EvapoRust, molasses (not readily available here), electrolysis (tried it years ago, but not sure how it will work on things like the chuck jaws, etc.)

Your comments are appreciated.

Regards,

Smitty

nice one, looks like you scored. (you think THATS rust? lol!) ditch the "live center" ..it's dead, not worth thinking any more about..

UtahSmitty said:

I need to clean up the rust/grease mixture form the chucks, collet closer, compound slide, etc.

Click to expand...

EvapoRust is good stuff but you have to remove all the grease and oil first.

OilEater is a great detergent for getting the grime off, either straight or diluted a little, and a chip brush will work the grime loose. Once it’s clean and rinsed, EvapoRust will get rid of the rust. Don’t let any part stick out of the EvapoRust bath or it will get etched at the air-liquid interface.

Electrolysis also seems to work well though I’ve only used it on crustier things.

beckerkumm said:

Determine exactly what motor you have now. 2 pole 3600 rpm motors are pretty rare for lathes. Then see if the motor has two separate windings or the more common Dahlander connection that is a single winding motor that drops poles out to change speed.

Click to expand...

Well, I pulled all the covers off last night, and couldn't find a data plate on the motor on the parts that I can see. I's a big beast... cast iron with fins... there are two heavy gauge wires coming out of a box on the side of the motor. Does that give any indication what type of windings it has??

Thanks,

Smitty

jwmelvin said:

Don’t let any part stick out of the EvapoRust bath or it will get etched at the air-liquid interface.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that information about the EvapoRust... I need to do the collet closer draw bar and handle, and was planning to do it a section at a time... looks like I'll need to come up with a different plan for it.

Regards,

Smitty

UtahSmitty said:

...there are two heavy gauge wires coming out of a box on the side of the motor. Does that give any indication what type of windings it has??

Click to expand...

Look inside the box. Often there is wiring information printed or stamped on the inside of the cover or marked on the terminals.

UtahSmitty said:

Thanks for that information about the EvapoRust... I need to do the collet closer draw bar and handle, and was planning to do it a section at a time... looks like I'll need to come up with a different plan for it.

Regards,

Smitty

Click to expand...

You can make a trough to accommodate long thin parts with sliced pvc pipe or almost anything lined with plastic sheet.

Thanks, Ballen.

I didn't think of that.

Smitty

Thanks JW... that's a good idea.

Smitty

The issue with parts sticking out of the Evaporust is mostly cosmetic. There are several ways to deal with long or unusually shaped items. The troughs mentioned by jwmelvin are one. Another is putting the item in a plastic bag with a small amount of Evaporust and then putting that in a pool of water so the water presses the Evaporust against the part and up to the water level.

The Evaporust solution is "used up" over time. After it has been in use for a while it will take longer to work. Also the chemical reaction that occurs becomes stronger as the temperature of the metal and solution increases.

You CAN use Evaporust on parts to large to submerge. As jwmelvin stated, wash off the oil and grease. Brush or scrape off all the rust that you can so the Evaporust will last longer. If at all possible, heat the part. In general, the rate of chemical reactions doubles with each 10 degree Celsius (18 degrees F). Swab pour or spray on the solution after arranging a way to collect and reuse the runoff. Keep the entire object wet. Strips of fabric or paper towels can "hold" the solution against the surface. If this is done, wring out and re-wet the strips so the solution against the metal is refreshed. Brush and scrub any rusty surfaces. This will expose any deeper layers of rust to the solution and remove any black oxides forming on the surface. If you can set up a collection system with a recirculating pump and continuously spray the solution it will be less work in the long run.

J_R_Thiele said:

Swab pour or spray on the solution after arranging a way to collect and reuse the runoff. Keep the entire object wet. Strips of fabric or paper towels can "hold" the solution against the surface. If this is done, wring out and re-wet the strips so the solution against the metal is refreshed.

Click to expand...

I've done just this on a floor-standing arbor press frame that was far too large to submerge in any bucket or improvised basin. Made a dam from semi-rigid plastic sheet and plumber's putty to confine the Evaporust to the head of the frame, used a cheap garden pump and a shop-made manifold with bent-to-fit copper tube to get the Evaporust in all the passages and bores of the head, some old shop rags and paper towels to encourage the Evaporust to flow along all the surfaces, ugly "funnel" of plastic film to redirect drips back to the pump reservoir.

Once I got the head with actual machined surfaces cleaned up, I used mostly mechanical means (stripping disks) to clean up the majority of the casting.

beckerkumm said:

Determine exactly what motor you have now. 2 pole 3600 rpm motors are pretty rare for lathes. Then see if the motor has two separate windings or the more common Dahlander connection that is a single winding motor that drops poles out to change speed. That type of motor is a more difficult fit with a vfd. If that lathe turns out to be in good condition it is quality enough that you should consider going with a phase converter and keeping both the high and low ranges with full torque and hp using the existing motor. If you go single speed, the motor may need to be upsized to handle the low to high range. Gearing will determine what works best. Dave

Click to expand...

So, I actually was able to locate the data plate... under a layer of crud, and clean it off. It was still hard to access to get a clear shot, but here are some pictures of it (not sure why the first picture is rotated... it isn't when it displays on my computer).



The lathe is 2 speeds-- 5 hp/13.4 amps @ 1730 rpm, and 3 hp/9.4 amps @ 1155 rpm. 5 hp uses 4 poles, and 3 hp uses 6 poles. It says the rotor is a "1991", if that means anything... it seems more to be the year of manufacture.

Based on this, I think I'm going to get a 7.5 hp rotary phase converter and run it at 5 hp. The range of speeds at 5 hp is 87-1800 rpm while the 3 hp is 58?-1200. So, both low and high speeds gear down fairly low, while the high speed goes 50% higher. I should be able to leave it in high speed, and use the VFD to slow it down a little more if I want to thread something, etc.



Regards,

Smitty