Cold snap while furnace suddenly broken.

I've been having a problem with the oil furnace in the shop, and, of course, it quit totally when this current cold snap came.

The furnace technician used a jumper to force the furnace to fire bypassing automatic controls, but at the time I wasn't paying enough attention to notice which wires he jumped, and trying it blind hasn't worked. I asked him which wires to jump and he said he couldn't tell me, liability. A shop full of very expensive machines and he is worried about himself! I intended to engage the full time fan and trigger the burner for five minutes several times a day. Needless to say that guy is one heating guy I won't use again.

The replacement part won't be here until Tuesday at the best. I'm wondering if the water soluble oil makes the freezing temperature go down at all. I searched using two word strings and couldn't find out here.
Thanks ahead for any info,
parts

My hot water heater gas control stopped working. I will trade you for my cold water showers.
Who ever said if it doesn't kill you then it makes you stronger.

I don't blame the guy, he's right. If you do it with his "instructions", and manage to burn the place down, you might sue him... at least many folks would. If he doesn't tell you anything, and you mess with it, it's pretty much "on you".

it's unlikely that stuff will freeze unless it's very cold. As in zero or below, and that for quite a while.

Steel building, nothing to burn.
Thinking about it today I'm thinking he may be redirecting anger he should show himself to me. This furnace has been forcibly on his mind for two weeks. I called, he fiddled with it and said it was good, it wasn't.

I called again, he came several days later (He's so busy) and he adjusted the fan control, which didn't help. It worked for a day or so, then got to where we had to rap the side of the furnace, which to means something in one of the controls is sticking. Finally rapping it wouldn't start it.

After several more days, during which we are calmly reminding him that we are working in the cold, he comes out and finds the fault which he hadn't found in a normal "service call". Calls a day later and says he ordered the part, minimum two days, that's without the holidays and weekends.
Well, it was at this point I asked which contacts he had jumpered, as I wanted to turn it on with the fan on manual for five minutes several times a day.

I refuse to work out there, my poor employee needs the money too bad to not work, and he did. I can't afford to not work either, but I lay my anger on the jerk who could have shown me for no danger to himself. I do not believe that five minutes run time 4 times a day is a danger, while leaving it to freeze is.

At this time I'm charging my truck battery to get two torpedo furnaces, so it's probably all moot, but they are no where near as efficient as the oil burner.

I'm with JST. I wouldn't tell you how to bypass a safety device, either.

I've seen steel buildings burn. The paint will burn, which will move to any flammable liquids, furniture, etc. The building may not fall down, but it will be a mess.

Nope, couldn't happen, very unlikely since I'd be standing there.

For that matter the torpedo furnaces might start a fire.

Its not you that will sue him either, its generally your spouse and kids that sue people in thoes situations, its also not the likely hood of the place burning down, more killing your self with CO. Were the real risk is.

The fact you left a key tool you knew was playing up till it broke also says a lot about you too. I don't mean it nasty but as some one that does maintenance stuff for people, people that generally come across as you do will bodge things for as long as they possibly can. Generally this sorta customer will have a nice car, good family and frequent a decent church! but run equipment right into the ground, saving every penny they can on the way down there! Even if it takes more effort than fixing the thing properly.

All else, stick a couple of electric fan heaters or similar in there. Takes very little in even a poorly insulated building to keep the place from freezing generally!

"Me too", sigh.

New years eve day, kept smelling "burning plastic smell". Could find no smoke, no hot spots on furnace etc. Kept working. Suddenly after about a 1/2 hr intermittant work vs checking, smoke starts pouring out the ductwork, and some of the seams. Turned the furnace down to -0- but since no flames yet did not turn blower off lest it crack firepot or cause other thermal issues. Got water bucket and sloshed water in duct, glowing coals could be seen. (Insulated/fiberboard trunk duct) Worked from one end to the other of trunk with the water sloshing, then disconnected it from ceiling and took it out in the driveway.

Guessing with that scenario the heat exchanger probably burned out.

Furnace guy supposed to be coming on Monday. Got a couple of those oil immersion electric heaters from the house going to keep stuff from freezing.

Good luck with yours.

smt

stephen thomas said:

...... Got water bucket and sloshed water in duct, glowing coals could be seen. (Insulated/fiberboard trunk duct) Worked from one end to the other of trunk with the water sloshing, then disconnected it from ceiling and took it out in the driveway.
......

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Holy crap. Now glad I have no inside insulated runs on the heat systems.

Wrong time of year for it but in the spring stores discount electric heaters 50% or more.
I've picked up quite a few of various kinds. Also bought some at yard sales for pennies on the dollar.
Now when the furnace quits at the worst possible time in one of my places I have a nice stock of electric heaters and the only problem is finding enough individual breakers to put them on.
Not cheap to run but better than replacing broken pipes.

I've had a couple of torpedo heaters. Mine were ok on a construction site with lots of open ventilation.
Terrible in a closed room like my shop. Perhaps newer ones are better but I'd rather spray Imron without a mask than be sealed in a room with the ones I had.
Bob

Sounds like your primary control. Yes, we can jumper them and NO I have never told a customer. If it doesn't ignite for any reason, it will pump oil into the fire pot. Do that a few times and you've got a bomb on your hands.............LITERALLY!
Customer. Yup, I kept pushing this button and nothing.
Been there and done that too many times.

partsproduction said:

I've been having a problem with the oil furnace in the shop, and, of course, it quit totally when this current cold snap came.

The furnace technician used a jumper to force the furnace to fire bypassing automatic controls, but at the time I wasn't paying enough attention to notice which wires he jumped, and trying it blind hasn't worked. I asked him which wires to jump and he said he couldn't tell me, liability. A shop full of very expensive machines and he is worried about himself! I intended to engage the full time fan and trigger the burner for five minutes several times a day. Needless to say that guy is one heating guy I won't use again.

The replacement part won't be here until Tuesday at the best. I'm wondering if the water soluble oil makes the freezing temperature go down at all. I searched using two word strings and couldn't find out here.
Thanks ahead for any info,
parts

Click to expand...

It seems you would be there when you run the furnace, I would do the same thing.
Ask him to make it run again, watch over his shoulder only this time pay attention! I guess you learned something eh? I hate this bullshit litigious society we live in today but it pays off when you're the one not being sued. It only takes one asshole suing someone for a frivolous reason to screw up the whole system, we're way past that now, its a dog eat dog world out there. Plug in your salamanders and let them run, heat the machinery up then vent the bad air for a few minutes. Make chips and buy a new furnace. I'm on your side BTW.
FWIW its been mentioned that it would take a lot of cold to freeze your fluids, I might mention also that yes the soluble oil will decrease the freeze point for the solution, how much I can't say.
Ron

Temperature is back up to 36 now, and I have two propane torpedo heaters. But the original question, not well put, is "does water freeze at a lower temperature with water soluble oil in it?"
I looked, I did say that amidst all my complaining. Sorry about that, I've lost so much working time over this, but griping doesn't fix anything.

The fact you left a key tool you knew was playing up till it broke also says a lot about you too. I don't mean it nasty but as some one that does maintenance stuff for people, people that generally come across as you do will bodge things for as long as they possibly can.

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No, I calmly put up with a lot of expensive NOTHING. When I do a job for a customer that doesn't do what I say it will I don't charge him, this guy was out here three times and never fixed over a long period. more like 3 weeks. The third time he came out he did "A regular service call". I would assume a service check would find a faulty temperature or fan control. it's his screw up clearly.

There is an old saying, do unto others as you would have other do unto you. If I worked on someone's problem that long there is no way I'd charge him for nothing, but maybe you are different.

I've also noticed that people are quick to assume that the OP is doing something wrong, well, yeah, I did. I chose the wrong furnace repair business! Finally, actually being there, that means I have a much better handle on how our company was "serviced" than anyone in a forum.

The question, besides all the bitching I wrongly did, was will coolant freeze at a lower temperature than straight water.

partsproduction: You are concerned about the soluble oil/water freezing, just check it with an anti-freeze checker.I don't think it will freeze at your temps. If you still don't trust it, put some of your soluble oil in your freezer. When it gets slushy check its temp. It ain't rocket science. Good luck.

JH

adama said:

Its not you that will sue him either, its generally your spouse and kids that sue people in thoes situations,...............

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More and more it seems it is the insurance company that has to cover the burned building that looks for some way to get money from somewhere other than their own bank account. The owner files the report explaining that he was jumping the heater control "just like the furnace guy said to" because he wants to make sure he is covered, and that opens the door to the furnace guy being responsible.

A guy I was talking to at a training school I went to a couple of years ago told me that he and his son were riding dirt bikes on a piece of land that his brother owns. His son crashed the bike and broke his arm getting a trip to the emergency room. The guys insurance company sued his brother saying the landowner was responsible since he gave them permission to ride motorcycles there and didn't get a release from liability singed by the riders. He said fortunately it was only for the cost of the medical bills and not some nutty amount for damages or anything.

It is all crazy anymore.

At this time I'm charging my truck battery to get two torpedo furnaces, so it's probably all moot, but they are no where near as efficient as the oil burner.

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Ah, no they are way MORE efficient than the "oil burner".
Like 100%


It's a bit difficult for me to sympathize with your complaints about the heating guy. I pretty much figured out oil burners and furnaces when I got one for the garage I was turning into a shop back in 1979. I was 19 years old. It's not rocket science.

No internet or google back then, but I managed to decipher the wiring and theory and figure out how they work, why they don't, and how to fix them.
Today, with the internet and a bit of curious surfing, a guy should be able to educate himself quite well on the device in about 1 hour or less. Lots of helpful MAINTENANCE information and tips out there too. (You do keep up with maintenance on the furnace)?
Then, it's a lot less painful and costly the -next- time something goes wrong.
No waiting for the heating folks to come overcharge you either.

partsproduction said:

<snip>
The question, besides all the bitching I wrongly did, was will coolant freeze at a lower temperature than straight water.

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Yes. The $64 question is "by how much"? An antifreeze tester's freezing point calibration is based on the specific gravity of ethylene glycol solutions with water. Water soluble oil will lower the freezing point by some amount, but that amount will be different from that for the same specific gravity of an antifreeze solution. A chemist could tell you by how much based on the ingredients but by the time you could find the answer you will probably know it anyway.

I am not a furnace guy, but I think that furnaces are not complicated compared to machining. There is a timer safety based on a photocell so if the furnace does not fire fast enough the motor is shut off to prevent more oil being pumped into the chamber. This is good because oil floods (and explosions) are bad. There is a temperature safety, which might double as the fan motor control, that prevents a dead fan motor or broken belt from allowing the burner to damage (maybe melt) the heat exchanger. It sounds like the temperature safety is bad. Some of the combination ones are a spiral-wound bimetallic strip that actuates switches. They vary in length and perhaps settings. It's hard to imagine a furnace repair company without spares that would at least work until you got the right one. It sounds like you need a new furnace guy from where I sit, but you're in Oregon and I'm in NY.

Good luck...

John

Tom Doudna said:

.......

A guy I was talking to at a training school I went to a couple of years ago told me that he and his son were riding dirt bikes on a piece of land that his brother owns. His son crashed the bike and broke his arm getting a trip to the emergency room. The guys insurance company sued his brother saying the landowner was responsible since he gave them permission to ride motorcycles there and didn't get a release from liability singed by the riders. He said fortunately it was only for the cost of the medical bills and not some nutty amount for damages or anything.

It is all crazy anymore.

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That is just so wrong on so many levels. No wonder you can't find places to ride anymore.
I've been broken on other's property many times. Never thought something like this would result. Brings a new meaning to don't ask, don't tell.
What kind of world are we building? You ride in the dirt, you crash, you get a little hurt, you learn how to fall gracefully.
Then when you have a street bike you know what to do when that car pulls out in front of you.
Bob

"Soluble oil" is an emulsion, not a solution. The water part of it will freeze just like any other water. It may be mushy due to the oil droplets.

It sounds like the temperature safety is bad. Some of the combination ones are a spiral-wound bimetallic strip that actuates switches. They vary in length and perhaps settings. It's hard to imagine a furnace repair company without spares that would at least work until you got the right one.

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I also think that is the one, it reports to a thermostat set to two temperatures, one is the max heat setting, adjustable, and the other is a fan shut down when the temp drops too low. Basically what I'd like to be able to do is bypass all of that, run the fan on manual so fan/heat exchanger temp is no a factor, and let the burner run for 5 minutes sevral times a day. I'm in the shop, and there are several fire extinguishers on the walls. I think the danger level is very low.
The signal is 24V AC from a transformer, and I think the W contact is the recipient for that signal.
To be honest I've never understood electricity though I've wired many things over the years. But so far nothing I've done has worked, and the anger is based on the attitude of a guy I've known for over 20 years going by the book on this when he could have gone through the motions of showing me without saying anything, and who could ever prove he gave me permission to blow the whole block up with the bomb my furnace is, all the kids! a whole neighborhood! Just because I don't want my life investment frozen!

I've taken probably 200 kids for their first flight in an airplane, it's the greatest joy of flying for me, better than aerobatics even, to see their eyes open wide and when they start to giggle as they see the "Tiny cows" down below. That's been part of my flying career both commercially and as a private pilot.
So, I overhear two old pilots talking about taking kids flying, "But my lawyer said don't do it!" and the other guy says "yeah, better safe than sorry".
They both disgust me. God gave them the gift of wings and they won't share it because of some lawyer.

This is the same kind of thing. It makes no sense to me at all that this guy acted like that when there was zero danger to him from me.

Slushy coolant probably will not break cast iron coolant reservoirs I think. That make sense, I'll put some in the freezer and see.