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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    ...
    When there's too much of anything its value is diminished and we've sold far too many kids on the idea that a college degree is the ticket to a good life to the point where a common Bachelor's Degree is the new High School Diploma. I've worked with too many Phd holders who complained that their salary wasn't so great for 50 and 60 hour weeks and wasn't funding the lifestyle they had thought it would.
    ....
    Two different things. I believe at the moment the single most important factor in increasing one's lifetime earnings is to get a 4 year degree after college. Graduate degrees don't increase that much at all. Both classes are satistically better off than just a HS diploma.

    As I said at the outset - trade school or college? BOTH.

    Worked for me.

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    Diplomas suck.
    I dropped out after two years to run a shop doing well.
    Younger sister, I told her to stay in as a ME when she wanted so badly to quit.
    She hatted the whole deal. I go visit once a week on my trips to Lansing and customers and convince her to stay.
    How does this end?
    Sis stuck with it, got a job as a engineer and then went to Harvard. Now she has real money and I am trying hard this month to pay my car insurance.
    I have trade skills but she is doing maybe a tad better.
    GET THE DEGREE. Put in the effort when young. Your older self will thank you.
    Opposite side and your older self will question itself.
    Last edited by CarbideBob; 10-22-2021 at 10:17 PM.

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    I believe at the moment the single most important factor in increasing one's lifetime earnings is to get a 4 year degree after college.
    Probably true right there^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    But,
    There other things that can be just as effective.

    #1 don't have kids out of wedlock
    #2 Other than a mortgage, don't borrow money.
    #3 Wake up early every day and go to work....no matter what.
    #4 when you do get to work, leave your phone in your car.

    JMHO

    Your mileage may vary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    #1 don't have kids out of wedlock
    #2 Other than a mortgage, don't borrow money.
    #3 Wake up early every day and go to work....no matter what.
    #4 when you do get to work, leave your phone in your car.

    JMHO
    This all looks good, except for one thing : the US tax code.

    You're a sap. Work your ass off forever for pennies while Goldman-Sachs rips you off every time you take a breath.

    Your mileage may vary.
    Unfortunately, it won't. In 1970 yes, but nowadays they pretty much have you covered. As a blue collar guy, you're a slave without the benefits. 750 people own 60% of the entire United States -- and they don't think that's enough.

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    As a blue collar guy, you're a slave without the benefits.
    How is it that you know about my finances and benefits?

    You have no idea of my situation or my "slavery" to the federal government.

    I work for great people who treat me as an equal, and pay me well.

    As for the 750 folks you speak of, if they were really that powerful, they would be coming for YOU.

    Who's that at the door?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Two different things. I believe at the moment the single most important factor in increasing one's lifetime earnings is to get a 4 year degree after college. Graduate degrees don't increase that much at all. Both classes are satistically better off than just a HS diploma.

    As I said at the outset - trade school or college? BOTH.

    Worked for me.
    I do think Jim is making a good point here as this is what people will do is pile on the extra education. I suppose everyone could extend out high school and then a associates degree would be a higher threshold. The problem could be that the individual selects a focus of study which is a dead end based on some factors.

    I know there are all kinds of professionals who have a life mission to help others for instance and they are not paid high incomes. Then some degree plans offer silly value and can be just a money grab.

    Doctors spend many years to become doctors and they are worked hard while doing that. They have to be tough. Many do not want to commit that time. Heck many are driven to marry and have children and a family. It is a sad thing when such persons falsely believe a field offers a secure income when it does not for whatever reasons. Sometimes career paths are hyped and promoted. They might as well institute a lifetime draft to just be open about it.

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    Milland has missed the point. Rather than bashing colleges and universities, the "bashing" is on the demand of many organizations that they hire only college graduates, even for jobs that clearly do not require that.

    And on the general societal view that only a college graduate is worth anything. Even the EEOC gets in on that. One former employer got dinged by the EEOC for putting a non-college graduate on salary. The theory seemed to be that the non-graduate was not smart enough to be capable of determining when or if the employer was abusing the "salary" to get unpaid overtime. Possession of any degree, even "Art History" * would allow a person (in the view of the EEOC) to avoid being screwed on pay by being on salary. The person had to be put on hourly, even though the person was arguably smarter than some of the engineers.

    There is no required correlation between intelligence and education. It is often economics, or other things which determine who goes to college. There are dummies getting degrees, and very smart folks with none.

    The problems are not with the colleges etc (aside from a need for students to pay the bills), but with the perception of graduates vs non-graduates.

    Society says "non" are "not as good".

    The HR department says the "non" are worth less even in the exact same job. Society tolerates that, and even applauds it.

    Society sets the "proper course" for a college graduate differently from a non-graduate.

    College guarantees nothing except a better shot at societal acceptance, and the opportunity to learn more lucrative trades. Colleges in the US typically require "college english" classes. But many graduates cannot communicate well in "English" even so. And many who have not graduated are far better.

    The issue is the perception, and not the reality, of college graduates vs non-graduates. Some of the distinctions "perceived" between them are things which SHOULD have been learned (and used to be learned) in grade school or high school, such as proper english and the ability to communicate.

    And do not fool yourself that the colleges have not noticed.... They know, better than anyone else, that the students coming to them are often unprepared.

    THERE is your problem.

    As for the 750.....

    The 750 are quite real. They don't send anyone for him because complaining does not hurt them. Very little DOES hurt them, because they can usually get it stopped pretty quickly if it looks bad for them.

    Even those folks are not the biggest issue, they are just part of it.

    Just ONE nominally US financial organization is allegedly bigger in worth than the GDP of all but two countries. The one in second place is not much smaller.

    You do not think that matters? What sort of power does it confer to own biggish chunks of both most large banks and the companies that might borrow from those banks?

    * Full disclosure, I get to bash "Art History" because I actually have an AB in it, as well as a BSEE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    True, I'm thinking that for your own good I'm going to have to retract that offer to visit China.

    Attachment 332698
    I think I might be in love now EG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    I think I might be in love now EG.
    With Zhan shi qi the assassin ? Good choice, True


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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    ...
    The HR department says the "non" are worth less even in the exact same job. ....
    That's the *real* 'golden rule.' The guys with the gold, rule. They're the guys with the money, they decide the hiring criteria. Society need not chime in here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Two different things. I believe at the moment the single most important factor in increasing one's lifetime earnings is to get a 4 year degree after college. Graduate degrees don't increase that much at all. Both classes are satistically better off than just a HS diploma.

    As I said at the outset - trade school or college? BOTH.

    Worked for me.
    This has been my experience too- at a postgraduate level

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    The perils of book learning, a war story:

    A few decades ago, when Digital Equipment Corp (DEC) was shrinking and soon to fail, I interviewed a job applicant, a soon to be refugee from DEC's Intergrated Circuit business. This applicant had three PhD degrees in technical subjects. Yes, three. And I have none, never mind three. So, how do I effectively interview such a person?

    I fell back on one of my standard approaches, to ask about major systems he had developed, asking questions on what they did, how they worked, and so on, in each asking for a block diagram and a tour.

    It turned out that he could give fine descriptions of this and that piece, but could not explain how any of the systems worked and their components all fit together. I'd hazard that he had never been down to the manufacturing area solving problems. All Ivory Tower, no application. Would have been happier as a College Prof.

    Now I've known lots of people with PhDs, some of which who know everything about radar systems, and can explain each and every nut and bolt, where it fits in, and why it's there, if need be.

    No job was offered.

    Circling back to the topic of this thread, it's best to have a balance of experience and education, compared to all one or all the other. Or too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Heaton View Post
    I think if a person can qualify for an occupation that they truly enjoy and that provides for their financial needs without a college education, then 'college or not' doesn't even enter into the equation. There are a whole bunch of trades where the level of education and training is equal to or exceeds university-style but it is entirely focused on the specific field. As a bonus, you'd miss all the progressive bullshit propagated at the so-called 'institutions of higher learning' in the US these days. Don't know about other countries.

    For thirty-six years I held a job that I loved, that paid well and that was mentally stimulating as well as challenging at times. I hold a few technical or trade-related certificates but I don't have the coveted 'degree'. Never missed it, never cared, and never will.
    Amen, Amen

    "The journey you start on in life will not be the one you end up with"! I was an 18 year old kid with a passion, when I started in job shops in Chicago. There are all levels in toolmaking to being the best you can be. Toolmaking includes way more than just turning knobs. Needless to say there is a lot more to being a Craftsmen than four years in the classroom. A Degree doesn't make you a Professional. "If a man has good Boards or good Hogs or good Organs; they will beat a path to his door".

    Roger

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    The state government here is into pushing edumacation in a big way,and has structured just about everything so that a person without a degree....however hokey.....will not get beyond a certain level in a govt office job......and everything you can imagine now requires a state licence to perform,and no degree ,no state licence.......For instance ,you cant get a Real Estate licence without a degree.....In 1970,the licence cost $5,and anyone not actually in jail could get one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    I have a degree from a major university.

    Was it a waste? No. I did learn some stuff that was useful. The best thing about having a degree is it's one of the few things you can earn that no one can take away, and you don't have to keep sending anyone money to keep it.

    But....when I went to school, the higher education system had not yet gestated into what it is now - a money making pit of liberalism and greed. I think I paid around $600 per semester in tuition and books. Over 4 years, that would be $4800 give or take. Compare that to today, when it's wicked-expensive.

    I also didn't have to suffer for being white. If there were any quotas for the Negroe or otherwise non-white, they weren't worth noting. Now....you better be a damn smart white boy to get in.

    The university system is a breeding ground of liberal thought....let's set aside that catastrophe for now. But let's focus on the fact that it is also a system where they derive tremendous tax breaks, grants, endowments, and other financial benefits (like the massive profits of college sports) and bear almost no liability for any of it. Where do I sign up to get into that line of work?? Think about it...if GMAC were financing millions of dollars in debt that was never paid, there would be hell to pay. But when Auburn State does it, we get our jackass President on TV defending the deadbeats and insisting they should have their debt 'forgiven'. In other words, Auburn State sells a product that bears them no warranty or liability. If you graduate and never get a job, tough shit. They keep all of the money you borrowed and gave to them. When you default on the loan, no one goes after Auburn State for it. There is no repo man for education. Finally, the government jackasses who lent the money are not liable for it, either. Imagine that - they lent $350K to a retard for a doctorate in PanGender Studies and have no blame in the matter.

    Finally, the government passes on the losses to.....the taxpayer. So...the guy who didn't go to college and didn't borrow money gets to pay for it.

    That, my friends, is Democracy. You can sign up for your beating at your local Democrat Party office. Or not....they'll mail you your beating just the same.
    Did you by chance go to trump university?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    Did you by chance go to trump university?
    He wants to be angry, and by god he'll find someone to be angry at. Not that it'll be the right target, the actual underlying dynamic that causes his fear. Instead it'll be the bogeyman (Liberals! Blacks! Welfare!) that his masters told him to fear.

    You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him THINK!

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    Joe Gwinn:

    I've had very similar experiences. I also was "not impressed". I've seen folks with an MSEE who were less use as designers than some of our technicians. The boss hired one that I recall specially, bypassing the usual process. We had problems with just about every design he did, and I was overjoyed when he left.

    No experience interviewing PHDs, but your approach seems perfectly reasonable.

    I had a similar style of interview, although I often had them pick a portion of one of our schematics, and tell me what it did and how it did it. These were not difficult for anyone we would want to hire.

    It sure weeded out the "less practical" among them. Some "EEs" who had spent their career so far specifying equipment for cell sites got weeded out early.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Joe Gwinn:

    I've had very similar experiences.
    Well heck, since we've devolved into HR war stories ...

    A friend worked in a real estate development company at the Kerry Center. Kerry Center is ridiculously snotty. Boss was an ex-Miss Taiwan. Taiwan company.

    HR paid a humongous signup fee to some guy they found that they thought was wonderful. He immediately started doing deals behind the company's back and siphoning off the best sales. They finally figured it out and fired him, so he turned them in to the tax department (everyone cheats on taxes in China, it's a moral obligation). Company was suddenly in big trouble so Miss Taiwan goes back for a meeting with the money guy in Taibei. He says he'll keep it going if she drops her shirt. She says no, comes back, has meeting. Tells everyone the story, crying, they are all pissed that she wouldn't save their jobs by flashing a little boob. Or whatever Company goes broke, owing everyone a lot of money. She runs away in the middle of the night. Registered capital is supposed to cover this mess somehow, mysteriously can't find it. Maybe she took off her shirt for someone else, no one knows. Still going on in the court.

    Thanks, HR ! Good job !

    If I ever had a company with an HR department ? They could dig a pit for the latrine, then we'd shove them in there and push dirt over the entire mess with a D8. Except for the good-looking ones, we could sell them into sex slavery in Abu Dhabi to cover the rental cost of the bulldozer. HR is the most worthless pile of incompetent dipshits in any company.

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    My first job in the gubmint ,(I was a disabled vet,supposedly) ,the HR department had a sort of cadre of quite weird men and some very pretty wimmin in the clerical jobs/typists etc......the boss of HR was also somewhat weird (for the late 60s,not today).....anyhoo,fast forward god knows how many years ,Im watchin telly ,and heres one the HR guys confessed to the Hilton bombing......but hes still wearing the strange armless pullover he wore in the 60s......which is what fetched me out of my chair.......for those who dont know the Hilton bombing was orchestrated by NSW SB cops,the ASIO,an agent provocateur named Seary,and the HR dummies in a sect called Ananda Marga....Orange People.

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    What I had failed to grasp back in 68,was that the HR department were all Orange People...Ananda Marga ,which was a freelove sect.....Which explains why the interest from coppers and security agents.......another strange incident ,a car was pulled up by Traffic Cops,in the back seat were two men ,and one bomb....the driver of the car was called "person X"....an ASIO operative.....The two in the back were Seary and a flake called McCartney Anderson......Seary was never charged ,Anderson was jailed for 10 years,on Searys evidence.....Anderson claimed that the bomb was supplied by NSW Special Branch operatives.


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