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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Well heck, since we've devolved into HR war stories ...

    .......................... HR is the most worthless pile of incompetent dipshits in any company.
    No HR here.... As senior guy in R&D I interviewed what HR sent me.

    Your description of HR fits all too often. For a while they were turning away the best people.... one of them got through to us a different way, I interviewed and basically told them to hire him. One of out absolute best people. He and I have a patent (well the company does).

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    Quote Originally Posted by strokersix View Post
    I repeat: It is far better to be an engineer with shop experience rather than a shop guy with a degree.
    I have to agree fully. Spent most of my working life as a manufacturing engineer / manager, am a mechanical engineer by degree to start, now retired.

    25 years ago I was the lead integration engineer on a electronic system for the military - stuffing an armored vehicle with lots of goodies. Company was aerospace by culture, this was the first work of this type we had done. I started turning wrenches at a very young age and worked for a one man general contractor putting myself through college. The program was in schedule trouble so we had to work the Christmas shutdown - I scheduled one of my techs to work with me each day. So at 6:30 AM on 26 December we are trying to mount the armored box over the external air conditioners. We had a testy relationship with the design engineers - they were totally blind as to how to deal with weldments and such. Mounting holes, on tabs, did not line up. I had told the design engineering people I was going to just red line the prints, make corrections and get this (second production article) built. Result of that fight was I had to notify them before doing such. Being the PITA that I can be, I happily phoned the lead design engineer. His wife, obviously woken up, answered the phone. Once I got him on I told him what I was doing.

    Half an hour later the design engineer appears. Agrees as to my changes. Then decides he should 'offer to help'. I'm starting a 3/4 inch bolt on the bottom, an the tech hands him a torque wrench and says to - 'if you want to help then torque down that bolt to your right'. About 20 seconds later the tech starts screaming as he jumps over me to grab the torque wrench. 'Why aren't you stopping?' The design engineer did not know the click meant the set torque had been reached. He had never held a torque wrench in his life - admitted he did not know what he was doing. And this guy was the highest level one could reach as a design engineer. Smart person but no practical experience at all in our environment.

    All great design engineers I have known had one thing in common - they could build most of what they were designing. And knew enough to ask those who had to build it for advice at appropriate times.

    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Well heck, since we've devolved into HR war stories ...

    A friend worked in a real estate development company at the Kerry Center. Kerry Center is ridiculously snotty. Boss was an ex-Miss Taiwan. Taiwan company.

    HR paid a humongous signup fee to some guy they found that they thought was wonderful. He immediately started doing deals behind the company's back and siphoning off the best sales. They finally figured it out and fired him, so he turned them in to the tax department (everyone cheats on taxes in China, it's a moral obligation). Company was suddenly in big trouble so Miss Taiwan goes back for a meeting with the money guy in Taibei. He says he'll keep it going if she drops her shirt. She says no, comes back, has meeting. Tells everyone the story, crying, they are all pissed that she wouldn't save their jobs by flashing a little boob. Or whatever Company goes broke, owing everyone a lot of money. She runs away in the middle of the night. Registered capital is supposed to cover this mess somehow, mysteriously can't find it. Maybe she took off her shirt for someone else, no one knows. Still going on in the court.
    Was she by any chance descended from Zhan shi qi?


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    Quote Originally Posted by swamp dweller View Post
    I'd love to hear your thoughts.
    I have worked with people who had no degree and were very capable and self taught or used books.

    I have worked with people who have a degree and can barely do their laundry.

    I knew a guy with a math degree and he told me that he wished he had gone into the trades.

    A guy looks at my hands and asks if I'm in construction? I say no, I'm in electronics. Someone in a interview calls me a Jack of all Trades. That is me.

    A guy with a PhD in nuclear engineering is sitting in his office. On the blackboard is a drawing of how to do a drywall project. That's my kind of guy.

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    All great design engineers I have known had one thing in common - they could build most of what they were designing. And knew enough to ask those who had to build it for advice at appropriate times.
    I work many new mechanical engineering grads. They are all very good at what they do, but still a little green. All of them are from Missouri S&T.

    I'm the guy the come to for fixtures, testing stuff, metrology and the like.

    If they have a project, I ALWAYS ask if they understand what they need, or are they just guessing.

    Many times they are spot on, and I tell them that's exactly how I would do it. But sometimes they are clearly just guessing at how to do something and have not mocked up anything.

    So I show how to do a quick mock up or a quicky Autocad sketch to prove the concept. Then they always get the idea.

    Patience grasshopper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Gwinn View Post
    Was she by any chance descended from Zhan shi qi?
    Pretty sure no ... I've been told you don't want to mess around with assassins

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    I have both a degree and shop experience, not necessarily in that order.

    So I'd had four years of college but changed majors so it didn't add up to a degree requirement and I felt like it wasn't really teaching me how to earn money or make my way in life so I went off to work. Various jobs and decided I needed more formal training in machining so took the local community college program.

    Towards the end of the program it's job search and interview time and the head of tool design at a local manufacturer was there to talk to a few of us who were more interested in tool and die than production machining. We must have touched on the fact that I had college but no degree, and he said a degree is something very good to have in your back pocket. My position was, "a degree doesn't mean shit, it's what you know and can do that's important". We just agreed to disagree, but I did go to work for that company, first in the toolroom, then in tool design.

    It wasn't till YEARS later I understood what he was telling me. By that time I did have a graduate degree and had to do some scanning of applicants for the company I then worked for. A degree, per se, doesn't prove you can do anything useful for an employer, but not having one can certainly get you screened out of an applicant list.

    From an employer's perspective, if you have one opening and 50 applications, you're not going to interview 50 people. You want a small group of the most likely candidates. So the first task is to whittle that list down to just a few with any handy criteria. Whether it's good, bad, or indifferent, it's a fact that companies scan applications and the degree in your back pocket might be important in getting to the crucial interview.

    HR stories? Don't get me started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    With Zhan shi qi the assassin ? Good choice, True

    Well EG the ideal is Western Capitalism for women they get a lot more and have rights and can not legally be owned. A oligarch in China if there really is such a thing might be acceptable to her but that girl is going places.

    If we both were standing side by side with flowers in our hands she wouldn’t look twice at us but for the NAVY cap I would be wearing. Rebels are a good match for women like that until they balance their bank account at the end of the month and then she would wise up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    He wants to be angry, and by god he'll find someone to be angry at. Not that it'll be the right target, the actual underlying dynamic that causes his fear. Instead it'll be the bogeyman (Liberals! Blacks! Welfare!) that his masters told him to fear.

    You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him THINK!
    Go jump back on the Merry Go round and give it a break.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGTool View Post
    I have both a degree and shop experience, not necessarily in that order.

    So I'd had four years of college but changed majors so it didn't add up to a degree requirement and I felt like it wasn't really teaching me how to earn money or make my way in life so I went off to work. Various jobs and decided I needed more formal training in machining so took the local community college program.

    Towards the end of the program it's job search and interview time and the head of tool design at a local manufacturer was there to talk to a few of us who were more interested in tool and die than production machining. We must have touched on the fact that I had college but no degree, and he said a degree is something very good to have in your back pocket. My position was, "a degree doesn't mean shit, it's what you know and can do that's important". We just agreed to disagree, but I did go to work for that company, first in the toolroom, then in tool design.

    It wasn't till YEARS later I understood what he was telling me. By that time I did have a graduate degree and had to do some scanning of applicants for the company I then worked for. A degree, per se, doesn't prove you can do anything useful for an employer, but not having one can certainly get you screened out of an applicant list.

    From an employer's perspective, if you have one opening and 50 applications, you're not going to interview 50 people. You want a small group of the most likely candidates. So the first task is to whittle that list down to just a few with any handy criteria. Whether it's good, bad, or indifferent, it's a fact that companies scan applications and the degree in your back pocket might be important in getting to the crucial interview.

    HR stories? Don't get me started.
    There are many examples of persons who excelled without degrees. I know some and their companies always hire based on the same basis valuing degrees where certain high positions are to be filled. They feel doing so is a proven process which is valid.

    There are always exceptions to the rule and such persons who are can highly achieve. I think there are many blocks to progress that people will instal into the hiring process. They can not identify or even have a clue who is interviewing with them and even if such people are hired they are blocked, not recognized, and hardly utilized.

    It is like traveling a road with wagon wheel ruts they never explore they stay on the easy path with less risk and effort.

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    Default Another interesting situation

    So years back I worked in a shop that was represented by a union in a right-to-work state. And I was curious how the politics and machinations worked. To get a little more insight I'd come across a book of NLRB decisions (National Labor Relations Board). An interesting aspect of NLRB decisions is that they don't carry the weight of precedent as court legal decisions do, but arbitrators do like to see what decisions others have made and why.

    Most cases were boring, but a few stood out. One was a case of a guy being fired for lying on his job application. That would have seemed pretty ho-hum but for the circumstances. This was a modest manufacturing plant where the plant manager liked to move around and visit with workers in the lunch room just to keep in touch with sentiment out in production. So one day he'd been visiting with a guy who seemed atypical. He was clearly intelligent, well read, and thoughtful which wasn't typical of the working class group. So he had his HR manager pull the file and see what the guy's story was. Nothing remarkable, high school education. Somehow it just didn't add up so he asked HR to do some research.

    It turned out that the guy had a college education which he had essentially lied about when asked on the application. So they fired him. At the arbitration hearing his position was that he liked production work, they never had a problem with him on the job, and they would not have hired him if he'd revealed his education level.

    I don't remember how the case was adjudicated, but it was an interesting dilemma. Did lying about having more education trump just being a good employee in every other way?

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    Another war story, also from a few decades ago, useful for perspective:

    We were on a hiring campaign. We required people with 4-year degrees in a relevant engineering discipline. HR would send us stacks of resumes on paper, after filtering out the complete non-starters. This was definitely a credentials and buzzwords screen only. I don't know how many applicants were eliminated at this step, but 90% would not surprise me.

    Of the resumes I got, something like 2% ultimately became employees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGTool View Post
    So years back I worked in a shop that was represented by a union in a right-to-work state. And I was curious how the politics and machinations worked. To get a little more insight I'd come across a book of NLRB decisions (National Labor Relations Board). An interesting aspect of NLRB decisions is that they don't carry the weight of precedent as court legal decisions do, but arbitrators do like to see what decisions others have made and why.

    Most cases were boring, but a few stood out. One was a case of a guy being fired for lying on his job application. That would have seemed pretty ho-hum but for the circumstances. This was a modest manufacturing plant where the plant manager liked to move around and visit with workers in the lunch room just to keep in touch with sentiment out in production. So one day he'd been visiting with a guy who seemed atypical. He was clearly intelligent, well read, and thoughtful which wasn't typical of the working class group. So he had his HR manager pull the file and see what the guy's story was. Nothing remarkable, high school education. Somehow it just didn't add up so he asked HR to do some research.

    It turned out that the guy had a college education which he had essentially lied about when asked on the application. So they fired him. At the arbitration hearing his position was that he liked production work, they never had a problem with him on the job, and they would not have hired him if he'd revealed his education level.

    I don't remember how the case was adjudicated, but it was an interesting dilemma. Did lying about having more education trump just being a good employee in every other way?
    I have two friends who are phd in chemistry, both found no work in Switzerland (?!) for years after finishing their degrees. One is teaching HS in France, the other in a real estate agency.

    Another friend stopped short of finishing a phd in linguistics after realizing they'd be over qualified for pretty much anything except a Uni teaching position. Been working in great jobs ever since.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swamp dweller View Post
    Does this persons attitude sound like someone very out of touch with reality or is it just me. It sounds to me as if you don't have a college degree you are therefore a knuckle dragging neanderthal unworthy of breathing the same air as this person.
    I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.
    For every "educated" person that looks down on people without college degrees, there is a person without a degree that sneers at higher education. Both are idiots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    Well EG the ideal is Western Capitalism for women they get a lot more and have rights and can not legally be owned.
    Jeeze, true ... it was Mao zedong who dumped all that capitalist crap and brought women equal rights, banned footbinding, made them go to school, made them learn to read, made them equal partners under the regulations and in practice."Women hold up half the sky" was the quote, I think.

    Later on they rediscovered nice clothes, the power of the magic triangle, and how much better it is to be superior rather than equal, but thirty years ago commie women were all over the place doing "men's work". It was kind of refreshing to watch.


    " ... that girl is going places.

    If we both were standing side by side with flowers in our hands she wouldn’t look twice at us but for the NAVY cap I would be wearing. Rebels are a good match for women like that until they balance their bank account at the end of the month and then she would wise up.
    That girl is an assassin, True. She kills people. That's her job. Shi qi means seventeen, so she's seventeenth best in the company.

    You don't want to mess with her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    For every "educated" person that looks down on people without college degrees, there is a person without a degree that sneers at higher education. Both are idiots.
    Tomato Coupe -

    You have that right. I've had great teachers with doctorates - as well as two of the most capable, smartest people I have learned from in life who did not have the 'required education' for what I learned from them.

    The one man contractor I worked for in high school and college was one of the smartest persons I ever worked with or for. He could diagnose most any mechanical or basic electrical/mechanical problem - his belief without stating was that if someone made it he could figure out how to fix it. And he did. Not bad for a guy who had to leave school in eighth grade around 1926 when his father died, he was the oldest kid in a farm family and the family had to be fed. Work ethic of a long day, steady work and treat people right.

    And then there was the 'poor dumb duckfarmer' who was a 5th generation Texan, Hispanic from the Rio Grande Valley - his formal education was high school. He was an Army Warrant Officer who 'house broke' me as a wet behind the ears lieutenant. In the process taught me more about leadership and dealing with people than any of the MBA and company management courses I took over the years - and made me a poor dumb duckfarmer.

    You have to be smart enough to learn from the smart people you are privileged to meet in life.

    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by duckfarmer27 View Post
    All great design engineers I have known had one thing in common - they could build most of what they were designing. And knew enough to ask those who had to build it for advice at appropriate times.
    When I was looking at building a boat, I took a look at a hell of a lot of designs. In the end I chose one from a naval architect who'd also run his own boatbuilding yard and had personally built a hell of a lot of boats.

    It went together pretty much exactly as the plans indicated. The experience in actually building stuff showed.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    It went together pretty much exactly as the plans indicated. The experience in actually building stuff showed.
    The other side of that is, some pretty famous designers (I believe Herreshoff was one) expected builders to be professionals, so they put the bare minimum of information into the plans. You had to be pretty advanced to even use the damn plans

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    it was Mao zedong who dumped all that capitalist crap and brought women equal rights, banned footbinding, made them go to school, made them learn to read, made them equal partners under the regulations and in practice."Women hold up half the sky" was the quote, I think.
    Now we're quoting Chairman Mao?

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    It turned out that the guy had a college education which he had essentially lied about when asked on the application. So they fired him. At the arbitration hearing his position was that he liked production work, they never had a problem with him on the job, and they would not have hired him if he'd revealed his education level.
    I don't think my dad ever lied about his education, but he probably didn't reveal it on summer job applications.
    He was a chemistry prof, did a late life PhD when the small college science department corralled him and said he had eluded chairmanship long enough, get the damn degree and become chair. He also had 9 kids, so summers he worked various labor and construction jobs which were relatively easy to get in those days. One of the other profs worked evey summer as a welder, another was a mason, some worked on paint crews, etc.
    For my dad if he was not going to a summer institute for more grad studies, it included excavation survey laborer in other states, brick factory line work, Formica production cabinet shop one year. He was "found out" near the end of summer one year when he had been working as a plaster crew laborer and slipped with a hod in the slick that builds up around a mixer. It tore his knee out and the site boss got him to emergency, but was terrified what it was going to cost. Dad reassured him he had good insurance, which nobody believed. (almost 50 yr old drifter?)

    smt


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