Collis Magic Chuck - keep or move on?
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  1. #1
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    Default Collis Magic Chuck - keep or move on?

    I picked up a Carlton radial arm drill for my new shop. It doesn't have a hollow spindle with a knockout rod like the Summits I used to run. With the Summit you simply rotate the quill upwards quickly against the ejection pin/rod and it would drop the tool right out (most of the time). The Carlton I have has a solid spindle, and requires a drift to remove the taper. This is obviously slow and cumbersome when you don't have three hands. I know there are ways around it such as lowering the tool down to the table over a block of wood, but it's still much more time consuming having all those tools to juggle. I have one of those LFA auto drifts and that works ok too.

    However and in any case, the drill did come with a Collis Magic Chuck. I have an assortment of morse taper collets, and tap driver collets.

    img_6915.jpg

    I've been using this system for a couple weeks, and it is pretty slick. That said it's also a very sloppy system. Trying to pick up a center punch mark accurately is a real pain. Measuring quickly with dial calipers I'm seeing .020" clearance between the chuck body ID and the collet OD. For tapping it's been great... sort of a floating tool holder. I use an ER40 to MT4 collet chuck for small taps. Bit hard to see past the chuck compared to a Collis split taper tap holder, but much more universal system for around the shop.

    img_6854.jpgimg_6855.jpg

    For drilling I've been using twist drills so far from about 13/16 to 1-1/4". They work fine once the full diameter of the cut engages, but until then there can be a lot of chatter due to the play in the collet, and the fact that the collet drive balls fall into slots that are elongated. Those slots make it easier to snap the collets in, but that 30 deg of radial slop might be an issue.

    img_6916.jpg

    I'd like to tool up this machine with a drawer of indexable spade bits rather than setting up a huge twist drill index against the wall, and buying a big Oliver drill pointer, which takes up even more shop space. But I'm not sure this Magic chuck will play well with a spade bit system. They seem to like a rigid setup in my experience. Should I ditch the Magic Chuck and find a more rigid quick change system for my Carlton? It's got a MT4 taper.

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    Magic Chucks work great for tapping, but suck at drilling!

    They were intended to be used with jigs & drill bushings for drill work.

    Magic Chucks are also good for floating a reamer in a radial drill, lathe tailstock or turret lathe.

    Mike

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    You might look into a Kwik-Switch 300 or 400 adapter. They are on ebay a lot and the 300 or 400 adapters are pretty reasonable. Universal tool was the original manufacturer but Collis makes bits now, but its pricy. Search e-bay to see whats available.

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    Ah yes I forgot about those Kwik switch holders. We had one on a Ceruti horizontal mill and it worked well for that. Was a little tricky to move the spring-loaded collar by hand (usually had to use the spanner), but was very rigid. I didn't realize they made them with Morse taper shank, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bread View Post
    Ah yes I forgot about those Kwik switch holders. We had one on a Ceruti horizontal mill and it worked well for that. Was a little tricky to move the spring-loaded collar by hand (usually had to use the spanner), but was very rigid. I didn't realize they made them with Morse taper shank, thanks.
    You want a QC system that can actually hit a punch mark, ask these folks:

    Quick Change Tooling • PDQ Marlin Tool

    CAVEAT: They make good tools but hired website creators as can't SPELL in the English language to save their ass.

    Page Two:

    An Allied Engineering guru was kind enough - "right here, on PM" - to address my optimism as to what spade drills I could expect to drive, or not-so-much - with a 7 HP Allzmetal AB5/S, decent power feed, 5 MT, even with added HIGH PRESSURE coolant. Keep in mind Heavy Hams Hans also has the LOCKING drift slot like a Horizontal Boring Mill in Morse Taper needs.

    Only a tad over ONE INCH.



    et tu?

    Mind, an Irwin Speed Bore is a spade drill, too, and I DO work wood, now and then, "but still"...

    For ignorant steel, I bought Old Skewl helicals, annulars, and hole-saws instead.

    Got all day to mess with it, and "wotever" won't fit the daylight on the mill, there's two sizes of Chandler-Duplex in the drawer, "but still.."

    Might be all you real need is to de-burr yer taper - especially around the KO slot - and fill in a more complete collection of Morse KO drifts?

    I've got all-of ratchet, wiggler, and hammer-upons. Diff'rent strokes, etc., "but still"..

    ... "quick change" enough, NATIVELY, and for about 150 years, already, MT is.

    Another coupla "alreadys" with MT?

    In place.

    and...

    Paid for.

    What's not to like about that?

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    The PDQ looks simliar to the Kwik switch. But the website sucks, no pricing. Don't see much on the used market either. Kwik switch seems to be more common.

    I ran accross the McCrosky Wizard chuck too. Looks simliar to these other twist-to-release collar systems, but geared toward drilling more than milling. I'm liking the Wizard so far, although again no pricing on new stuff to be seen.

    I'm a little surprised this stuff isn't more common. Maybe Carlton was one of the few old radial drill manufacturers that required a drift to change tools making these quick change systems unecessary today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bread View Post
    The PDQ looks simliar to the Kwik switch. But the website sucks, no pricing. Don't see much on the used market either. Kwik switch seems to be more common.

    I ran accross the McCrosky Wizard chuck too. Looks simliar to these other twist-to-release collar systems, but geared toward drilling more than milling. I'm liking the Wizard so far, although again no pricing on new stuff to be seen.

    I'm a little surprised this stuff isn't more common. Maybe Carlton was one of the few old radial drill manufacturers that required a drift to change tools making these quick change systems unecessary today?
    I first went onto MT-snouted radials 1963 in their 101st year. I'm happy enough to run MT, yet today for DRILLING in their 156th year. And COUNTING. See Stephen A. Morse. 1864. Go Ogle that.

    See also MT vs B&S taper "wars". MT proved better for drilling, less sticking HARD in the taper. B&S proved better for milling, less walking OUT of the taper. Proven and recognized by around 1880 or so.

    I do NOT understand why you think changing an MT tool is SLOW?

    Burr-free taper.

    Burr-free and clean shanks.

    One hand on the rocker-drift, one on the tool, and DONE.

    Clean up your taper. Clean up yer tooling. Run what you got.

    Add wotever yah have a NEED for.

    Including "SLOW change" ER and TG adapters, MT to B&S or MT to 40-taper - and the reverse - if it rocks yer boat. HARD to find ANYTHING at all "toolish" as does not have a version with MT arse-end on it.

    You want 5C collets, nose-key-cranker, no drawbar needed? Or a 4-J or 3-J CHUCK on that snout?

    Place the order. They are on the shelf, Morse Taper arse-ends.

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    MT is great don’t get me wrong. But compared to the Summit and Ooya’s built-in ejection rods, this Carlton is very slow. It really adds up when you have multiple tool changes per part. Sometimes 4 tools per hole (Center to pick up the punch mark, spot, drill, tap). And many of my parts have lots of holes. Every fumbling tool change is an opportunity for the operator to drop the drift or a tool damaging the part, or breaking a tool. At that point you’re just going backwards. Plus the operator is swinging a hammer at the spindle all day is not ideal.

    The LFA auto drift removes the hammer, but tends to be a knuckle buster. Might get easier with practice. But it still requires some effort and extra time to grab the tool, and rotate the spindle to align the ejection slot. You have to bring the quill down to access the slot, then lift it back up to clear the tool. It’s just not efficient.

    I’ve spent many years on a radial arm drill working for other people. Now that it’s my shop I don’t want to waste time looking for things or fumbling with sloppy machining process’ if there’s a better way. I’ve got another 20 years ahead of me, and I believe investing in efficient tooling systems now is worthwhile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bread View Post
    I’ve got another 20 years ahead of me, and I believe investing in efficient tooling systems now is worthwhile.
    Collis masters aren't dear. Serious collection of unworn collets to feed them for 20 years can be.

    But WTH. 20 years to deal with? Piddly-ass MT FOUR?

    Quit f**king around with 1880's technology and go find yerself a CNC critter with a magazine and tool changer. How hard can it be to do your holes HORIZONTALLY, BTW?
    Folks BUILD rail-mounted rigs to do that with off-the shelf drilling heads all the time.

    If it won't get you a two-year payback? Contract the holes out to he who IS so tooled-up already and has open machine time.

    Nobody gets paid a premium for doing simple and repetitive shit the hard way just because their obselete tools are friendly old formerly-grand "legends" some OTHER Pilgrim already went BROKE running longer than they should have.

    They are machine-tools. MEANT to be consumed in use and replaced with better. Not Gods, meant to endure forever. Perhaps only out of standard human laziness, even so?

    Above my current pay-grade, that part.

    Yew-Ass Congress pretending to be "The Gods", and oblivious as boxen of rocksen at the same damned TIME is challenging enuf to try to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bread View Post
    The PDQ looks simliar to the Kwik switch. But the website sucks, no pricing. Don't see much on the used market either. Kwik switch seems to be more common.

    I ran accross the McCrosky Wizard chuck too. Looks simliar to these other twist-to-release collar systems, but geared toward drilling more than milling. I'm liking the Wizard so far, although again no pricing on new stuff to be seen.

    I'm a little surprised this stuff isn't more common. Maybe Carlton was one of the few old radial drill manufacturers that required a drift to change tools making these quick change systems unecessary today?
    They are VERY common. You watch a good operator using one, and they just doo a "dance".
    Changing tools in a flash, no retract, no fussing, in & out, spindle never stops.

    I have driven the McCrosky in a former life, and have a small (3' arm) radial at home, but it came with your PDQ type ones.

    The McCrosky has a large taper point at the top to help center the adapter, when the collar wedges it up.
    I think the collar does not turn all the way to "home", rather leaving it slightly pushing up on the ears of the McCrosky adapters. Thereby keeping it centered even if worn on the O.D.
    Quick Change Chucks | Tool Fabrication

    Could be everything is simply worn out with your set-up (making picking up a prick punch hard).

    The PDQ looks to rely solely on a precision ground straight bore for accuracy.
    One that needs clearance to slip in/out.
    Last edited by digger doug; 01-24-2020 at 09:08 AM.

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    I would keep the Magic Chuck. Nothing wrong with it. It is what it is. Use it for all the wobbly work you can.

    And then use the built in MT4 for work when you feel you can't stand the slop.

    I had a paper Scully Jones catalog for all my Magic Chuck tool holders back at my old job. The tool holders aren't the easiest to find, but they are out there.

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    We still have some Collis Chuck stuff in storage from decades ago when our shop had a Radial Drill. I've never used them but they're definitely made for production work where every tool is going through a drill bushing in a fixture or box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    They are VERY common. You watch a good operator using one, and they just doo a "dance".
    Changing tools in a flash, no retract, no fussing, in & out, spindle never stops.

    I have driven the McCrosky in a former life, and have a small (3' arm) radial at home, but it came with your PDQ type ones.

    The McCrosky has a large taper point at the top to help center the adapter, when the collar wedges it up.
    I think the collar does not turn all the way to "home", rather leaving it slightly pushing up on the ears of the McCrosky adapters. Thereby keeping it centered even if worn on the O.D.
    Quick Change Chucks | Tool Fabrication

    Could be everything is simply worn out with your set-up (making picking up a prick punch hard).

    The PDQ looks to rely solely on a precision ground straight bore for accuracy.
    One that needs clearance to slip in/out.
    McCroskey - usta be Meadville? Were rightous folk, made more than just damned good 4-Ways, even "back in the day".

    That steep cone and triple "ear" arrangement on the smallest two sizes of PDQ-Marlin is lovely, though.

    Yah need less daylight to make a swap than most anything else out there, so there's ANOTHER cycle-time saver, many a task.

    Moving on Z to clear a longish tool, then back again. Or NOT having to move at all.

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    I've contacted Marlin about their products, thanks.

    I'm going to abandon the Magic chuck system for now. I don't do any drill fixture work yet. I agree that if I had the volume, and agreeable part size, CNC would be the way to go. Right now we don't have the money for it. I just opened the doors here last month.

    Radial drilling is entry level work where I'm from. It's a simple, versitile machine. I can get any guy in the shop setup to run a job very quickly. I want everything to run as efficient as possible. Thanks for all the input guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    McCroskey - usta be Meadville? Were rightous folk, made more than just damned good 4-Ways, even "back in the day".

    .
    Yup, used to see the sign painted on the side of the building whenever I was driving down that way.

    Recall "Jakloc" cutters ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Yup, used to see the sign painted on the side of the building whenever I was driving down that way.

    Recall "Jakloc" cutters ?
    Kidding, right?

    Galis was so dirt-poor we had to make our own black-Iron stove bolts outta pallet strapping corn-cob stick welded up to size, then cut back.

    Give us enough powdered-iron rod, Mo-max, and Rex 95, our USWA Local, Westover, WBGVA cudda conquered the world!

    Or so we thought, at the time!

    Much of America - or at least Appalachia - was like that, back in the day.

    If attitude was all yah had? Drive it home and HARD. ... before the other side knows yer even in the game!


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    Looking for a different system? I just horse traded into a 4MT to Kwik Switch 300 adapter with a few holders.

    Interested?

    Ed.

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    Sure send me a PM. Thanks!


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