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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Regardless.. he said "High School", not "trade school".

    The REAL challenge is roughly fifty-minute class periods.
    I agree on the challenge of a 50-minute class period ... but not all high schools operate that way. In this area, high schools use 1:30 to 2:00 hour periods. Still not ideal for learning hands-on skills, but quite a bit more feasible than a 50-minute period.

  2. #22
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    There are two types of learners- analyzers and memorizers and as the saying goes, the twain shall never meet. As a card carrying analyzer, I know the frustration when someone would ask how to set the shutter on a camera (remember that at one time you had to set it yourself). I would try to tell them how to calculate it so they would always know and invariably they would respond "Just tell me where to set it."

    Memorizers are going to live their lives in default settings and I doubt that they can be changed.

    In flying ground school we learned to plot wind triangles, figuring the ground speed when the plane was turned into the wind to have the right course. That was 1957 and I haven't plotted one since. However, I have looked at the wind direction and speed to estimate the time and amount of fuel I needed hundreds of times. If I were teaching ground school, I would have the students plotting with a ruler and protractor, not because I expected them to do that later, but to demonstrate things like the fact that a crosswind from a bit astern will still cause a speed and fuel penalty.

    In a school, you first need to demonstrate the effects of rake, clearance, chip breakers, surface speed, etc., even if the students will be using inserts later, so they understand the basics of cutting. You aren't going to do that with a CNC machine.

    As to the argument that CNC is taking over, every day I see parts made on manual machines. These are productions parts to go in assemblies that will be marketed, but to markets that are not large enough, only a few per year, to justify writing a CNC program and setup. Someone has to make those few parts a year and someone has to make the CNC machines. Besides, you don't need to teach them that to do anything you need a $100,000 machine.

    Bill

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  4. #23
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    Having come to machining from programming, I started with CNC machines. Before the days of youtube (and even a little before PM was a big thing) - the programming was no big thing, but the pragmatic things (how much force to apply to the vise handle.... is it supposed to sound like that? etc) were big issues.

    So use of manual lathes, partly to teach people about basic machine safety (it won't chase you down like a bear, but if you get your hair caught in there it will be VERY BAD), and a very early level of what makes a sensible cut, how do normal operations sound, what are chips supposed to look like, etc. is probably a great place to start.

    And at least for me so far, a job can be set up and finished on the manual lathe before I can get the CNC lathe booted and going at all. This is NOT the case for my CNC mills....

    So for teaching students, maybe in a mixed manual/cnc model, picking the *right* CNC machines will be a key issue.

  5. #24
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    Guy asks what lathe to buy, and the answer is he should singlehandedly overhaul a few thousand different locally run educations systems across the USA...
    Well, thats certainly helpful.

    High Schools are run by local school boards. Who decide what kind of shop classes to have, and how long they last, and what they teach.
    Community Colleges are run at the State level, who, again, decide.
    Teachers who are told to buy new lathes dont make those calls.

    My local high schools all feed into Community College programs thru something called Running Start, which means any Junior or Senior in High School can take CC level machining and manufacturing technology classes, which feature some manual machines for basics and then CNC machines, IN THE SAME CLASSROOMS...


    Anyway- there are no manual lathes made in the USA these days besides the Standard Moderns, which appear to be partly Canadian.
    The Webbs are Korean, and double to triple the price, at least, of the Standard Moderns.
    The Colchesters and Harrisons are, to the best of my knowledge, Taiwan built, just like many of the Precision Matthews and Grizzly and Jet and Eisen and Sharp and Leblond and several other brands that are actually imported and supported in the USA.
    There are some decent eastern european lathes, but US representation has always been spotty, and thus, parts and service are harder to come by, plus, Eastern European lathes like TOS or TRENS or ZMM (bulgaria) generally cost another third or so more than the Taiwan machines.

    So, most likely, this school is going to be looking at Taiwan built machines, and the price points will vary depending on the importer, and how much care they put into sourcing them.
    Schools wont buy used machines on ebay or craigslist, so 60 year old monarchs and Lodge and Shipleys need not apply.

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    For what it's worth, when I was a student at Michigan the ME student shop got a couple brand-new Precision Matthews lathes which I hated. Suited me well enough though, because it freed up more time to use the venerable 13" round head lathes in the back of the shop, as most of the students assumed the brand-new machines with fresh paint cut metal better.

    I was one of the few people in the shop working something other than aluminum, so that was a big part of it for me.

    Have to second the problems with Precision Matthews.....

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    Someone who has mastered the basics of a manual machine at least has a good foundation.

    The brand of machine will depend largely upon your budget and ability to wangle a good deal out of your supplier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    ...
    There are some decent eastern european lathes, but US representation has always been spotty, and thus, parts and service are harder to come by, plus, Eastern European lathes like TOS or TRENS or ZMM (bulgaria) generally cost another third or so more than the Taiwan machines.

    So, most likely, this school is going to be looking at Taiwan built machines, and the price points will vary depending on the importer, and how much care they put into sourcing them.
    Schools wont buy used machines on ebay or craigslist, so 60 year old monarchs and Lodge and Shipleys need not apply.
    I suspect that is pretty accurate, but here's a thought. OP might call Monarch Lathe and have a chat. Not for a grand-old. To see what their imported lineup might offer.

    - We know they know the difference between great lathes and recycled tractor axles.

    - We know they have managed to stay in business off the back of - among other things - service and parts support, even where it has to have been right difficult.

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    Monarch is importing lathes, its true. Their toolroom lathes now are Weilers. Which are great lathes, but really really expensive. They also seem to be selling a TRENS SN 32, which is a Polish lathe- should be in the $30k range, more or less. At least, thats what they sell for in Canada.
    Home | Monarch Lathes
    TRENS SN32 - SU180 | Monarch Lathes

    you get what you pay for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    you get what you pay for.
    Probably including a high multiple of Industrial training budget being spent on funding for feel-good social studies when learning an honest trade one could actually feed a family off of might reduce the social stresses the feel-good course only teaches how to amplify the grief of and march about with posters over.

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    Our local community college, where I took some schooling, has a room full of Kingston lathes. Parts are easily available to the school with a phone call.

    Pretty solid machines from what I can tell with my limited exposure. We also had 2 Haas CNC turning centers and 2 CNC lathes - 1 Mori Seki and 1 Haas.

    I felt our program was adequate. If I recall correctly, the Kingston HJ1100’s were less than $20k outfitted with Newall Dro’s - I believe a school gets a better price as well?

    May be worth a look?

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Probably including a high multiple of Industrial training budget being spent on funding for feel-good social studies when learning an honest trade one could actually feed a family off of might reduce the social stresses the feel-good course only teaches how to amplify the grief of and march about with posters over.
    You obviously havent visited a community college, or volunteered at one, or hired their graduates, if you think this.
    I have consistently been hiring 2 year AA degree grads in welding since about 1988.
    I have not seen any of the "feel good social studies" you describe.
    The kids I hire can tig, mig, stick, and gas weld with much better proficiency than the "old timers"" who learned on the job I have hired. They are more motivated, and ready to work.
    Yes, they make them take basic english and math classes, too- I guess being literate and able to multiply might make one feel good.

    You should get up from the screen, and go down to your local colleges, and see how you could help. I jury the Welding Rodeo some years, I have had field trips to my shop, I have done projects with students at elementary, high school, community college and university levels.

    Maybe its because I live in a high tax blue state, but our trades programs around here are excellent, with good instructors, good shops, and the kids get jobs.
    And, yes, in the machining and manufacturing and automotive design and industrial design courses, they learn how to run manual lathes.

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  16. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    And, yes, in the machining and manufacturing and automotive design and industrial design courses, they learn how to run manual lathes.
    You are lucky. The products of trade schools, jucos, etc. around here are abysmal. I hired one who went through the Florissant Vally Junior College electronics course with a 4.0 average. He literally could not hook up a thermostat to my furnace. A friend hired Sanford Brown graduates but only as assemblers. Whatever these places teach, it isn't electronics. I have considered trying for a teaching job in one of these places but I am afraid that I would only get in trouble by expecting the students to actually learn the subject. In the mid 1950s I worked with several technicians who went through a local trade school. I concluded that the only thing it meant was that he had the ambition to show up every day for two years. Some of them got to be fair workers and one became a supervisor, but it was all OJT.

    As to military trained technicians, Navy was best, Air Force a close second, Army strictly an also ran. Circa 1965 when I worked for Brunswick Health & Science, I hired an Army trained one who was really good, but he was an exceptional person. So good that he was taken away and made a manager and I got another loser for a replacement. I looked him up a few years ago. He is now a retired millionaire, the exception that proves the rule.

    Bill

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