Convincing the new engineer his idea is a waste of time - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by projectnut View Post
    The easiest way to explain it is the same way it was explained to me. "For each place you move the decimal point to the left for tolerance you move the decimal point the same distance to the right for cost."

    We were cautioned regularly to only make the tolerances tight enough to get the job done. If a part only needs +/-
    .005" specify it as such. Don't get carried away with precision if it isn't necessary. The higher the level of precision specified the higher the cost to manufacture

    This is what I was taught as well. When I design things to be quoted by outside vendors, I try to spec only the critical tolerances as +/- .005" or less, anything that I can, I leave wide open at +/- .030", and if something can be stock diameter, or a saw cut finish, I spec that on the drawing, so the vendor doesn't waste time/money trying to make something nicer than it needs to be.

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    What is really bad is working with a superior who is non-mechanical, You can explain (for example) that this screw and spacer locates the door so it will be square with the door jam and gives proper spacing, so should not be taken out until the door is installed...and he insists to take the spacer out..and one in 10 doors does not fit with not having a rub.

    Some shop bosses are the same way..they never ran a grinder (or other machines) but think they know best on what they think should be. Or they read something in a book and try to apply that to instructing a journeyman who has 20+ years in the trade.

    They could say "what do you think about... but they say, "I think you should do this..."

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    Hi michiganbuck:
    You wrote:
    "They could say "what do you think about... but they say, "I think you should do this..."

    The worst ones are those who say:
    "You WILL do this...because I said so, and I'm your boss so don't fuck with me​"
    They're rare (fortunately) but not unheard of.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Grinding can be so tricky for some jobs that a dumb comment by some jerk boss can throw off one's thinking and make the job more difficult. I had one boss who asked me "Why did you stop working" I answered "Because I am talking to you and I can't run tenths and talk at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Grinding can be so tricky for some jobs that a dumb comment by some jerk boss can throw off one's thinking and make the job more difficult. I had one boss who asked me "Why did you stop working" I answered "Because I am talking to you and I can't run tenths and talk at the same time.
    I had one manager stand next to me saying nothing because he could see I was thinking & didn't want to break my concentration - software development. After he saw me lean forward, type fast on a bunch of lines of code then lean back, THEN he talked to me. He knew I had the essence of what I was trying to do saved and could pick up my train of thought.

    PDW

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    I'm an engineer closing in on about 20 years of work experience. If I had stayed on in oil companies I would probably had a comfy highly paid management role. However, I wanted to make the stuff that we ordered other companies to design and machine so I started my own company with some pals about ten years ago.
    To cut things short; if I come across bullshit like you described then I am ruthless. It might come across as arrogance (I don't care), but until you have done your time as engineer, designer and machinist then I decide what's sensible or not; in effect saving myself time and hassle and the customer money.

    One thing I hate is designers who when making drawings in CAD just use the default three digit decimals without considering the consequences. Also copy pasting of surface roughness specs, when in the end it just needs to look nice..

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Good morning All:
    A follow up...the issue is resolved.

    I spoke to the young engineer and let him know what was implied in his callout.
    I encouraged him to model a minimum material condition he could live with and a maximum material condition he could live with and I encouraged him to go through the exercise whenever he was confronted with this sort of problem, whether he is trying to design something and is unsure, or when a vendor has complained about a design feature.

    I pointed out to him that a static seal was possible within a fairly open tolerance band because the oring is compressible.
    I ignored the fact that the exercise is pointless...he wants it, there will be no harm from its inclusion, and I don't need the fight.

    So now I have a spec we can live with...the chamfer is called out as a simple chamfer and conforms to the general title block tolerance of +/- 0.005" and is no longer dimensioned from the big end of the cone...it is simply a chamfer callout...0.020" x 45 deg.

    He expressed some gratitude that I took the time to walk him through this, and all is good.
    They are still 75 cent parts and I still have my customer and no new enemies.

    He also acknowledged he didn't get taught how to think about these things in school, and maybe has a new opinion of machinists as a source of design expertise...hopefully revised upward.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
    This is excellent. And I wish I could be so diplomatic. Thank you for the lesson!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    This is what I was taught as well. When I design things to be quoted by outside vendors, I try to spec only the critical tolerances as +/- .005" or less, anything that I can, I leave wide open at +/- .030", and if something can be stock diameter, or a saw cut finish, I spec that on the drawing, so the vendor doesn't waste time/money trying to make something nicer than it needs to be.
    I have spent more time than I care to remember on these conversations.
    To often I am 100% familiar with the application, and I have to educate the "engineer" on "affordable manufacturability".
    The conversation always goes (in not so few words): if you can't profit, I can't profit.

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    Find the “ engineers” new designs failure mode popped into my head, they don’t like that, proving physically how their modifications will fail usually discourages them, new ones are the worst as they desire to show the world that they are smart, in control and unassailable, it usually crumbles shortly after their first cock up.
    Perhaps the hole should be the right size, that’s cheap, eliminate extra steps and parts?
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    This is what I was taught as well. When I design things to be quoted by outside vendors, I try to spec only the critical tolerances as +/- .005" or less, anything that I can, I leave wide open at +/- .030", and if something can be stock diameter, or a saw cut finish, I spec that on the drawing, so the vendor doesn't waste time/money trying to make something nicer than it needs to be.
    Attaboy!
    Yes, when it comes to tolerances, noughts cost money!
    Had a grammin job only last week to do where half a dozen dimensions were obviously default CAD 3 decimal tolerances (x.xxx) and it meant 4 tools had to match eachother (this was all Z/depth dims).

    Which meant +/- 0.01 metric (= 0.0004").
    Tolerance block had
    X.X +/- 0.25 (0.010")
    X.XX +/- 0.1 (0.004")
    X.XXX +/- 0.01 (0.0004")
    5 year old part - "oh, no one's ever questioned before" ....

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    [don't waste time/money trying to make something nicer than it needs to be.] as that's just ego and ego don't pay the bill's you can't go to wall mart and when its time to pay go hey see that nice button on your god dammit i designed it . yea that's nice it will still be 42.50. when john browning was a young lad working in his dad's shop he was fixing a customers gun and trying to make it shine . his dad tolled him . son the guy is already use to what it looks like he just wants it to work .

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    My suggestion is to take him into the shop and let him watch as you make a part the old way and the new way. While the machines are running you can explain about the importance of balancing design tolerance with cost. Maybe that will open his mind a little.

    metalmagpie

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmagpie View Post
    My suggestion is to take him into the shop and let him watch as you make a part the old way and the new way. While the machines are running you can explain about the importance of balancing design tolerance with cost. Maybe that will open his mind a little.

    metalmagpie
    take him into the shop and hand him a broom and tell him he started at the wrong end of things

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    I`d say that never hesitate to contact and tell your suggestions like you did. I`m pretty sure the designer will be grateful to hear suggestions how to improve the design and be better Engineer. Of course there are also a-holes who think they know better, but in that case you know next time to go the other way for his/hers designs..

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    I had an engineer show up with a part he wanted modified. Told him it couldn't be done according to his drawing. He says "I'm the engineer, just make it to my drawing". So, I put a .75" diameter hole into the .625" diameter part and handed him back a bag of chips. It turns out he had wanted a .575" hole but didn't review the drawing for mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilGunsmith View Post
    I had an engineer show up with a part he wanted modified. Told him it couldn't be done according to his drawing. He says "I'm the engineer, just make it to my drawing". So, I put a .75" diameter hole into the .625" diameter part and handed him back a bag of chips. It turns out he had wanted a .575" hole but didn't review the drawing for mistakes.
    Either it's a bullshit story that didn't happen or you were a passive aggressive jerk who didn't point out an obvious typo to the engineer. Either way it doesn't reflect well on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punkinhead View Post
    Either it's a bullshit story that didn't happen or you were a passive aggressive jerk who didn't point out an obvious typo to the engineer. Either way it doesn't reflect well on you.
    1. NOT the machinist's job to guess whether or not the engineer made a typo (implying that they understand what simple mistake was made and what IS correct)

    2. He did point out that there was some mistake and that the part was impossible to make according to the print.

    3. As an engineer, I have never, ever, ever, ever considered blowing someone off the way that guy did. If someone has a question about a drawing I made, I want to know why so that I can learn what I did and how I can avoid doing it again if it was an error or confirm that the understanding is correct and have a discussion about the challenges posed by that design intent (ya know, just like the situation of the thread's OP).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punkinhead View Post
    Either it's a bullshit story that didn't happen or you were a passive aggressive jerk who didn't point out an obvious typo to the engineer. Either way it doesn't reflect well on you.
    I'd rather say the "Engieer" was the "agressive jerk". :-)
    ...lewie...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    1. NOT the machinist's job to guess whether or not the engineer made a typo (implying that they understand what simple mistake was made and what IS correct)

    2. He did point out that there was some mistake and that the part was impossible to make according to the print.

    3. As an engineer, I have never, ever, ever, ever considered blowing someone off the way that guy did. If someone has a question about a drawing I made, I want to know why so that I can learn what I did and how I can avoid doing it again if it was an error or confirm that the understanding is correct and have a discussion about the challenges posed by that design intent (ya know, just like the situation of the thread's OP).
    The story was made up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punkinhead View Post
    The story was made up.
    Well, at least everyone got the joke explained to them then


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