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  1. #3701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    The IHME modeling has revealed a bit of self-interest in a continuing crisis (somewhat like HHS being threatened by any end to poverty and dependency).

    In any case, here's a statistic to put things in perspective: Deaths per month by COVID-19 are trailing heart disease, cancer, flu, asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, stroke, Alzheimer’s, diabetes and even drug overdoses.

    For whatever reason or combination of reasons, COVID-19/Wuhan Flu/Bat-soup virus is failing to justify the mass freakout, not to mention the economic consequences of people being sent home who aren't gonna have a job to come back to. That plays into some people's hands because it's the only way they can remotely blame Trump for hard times (known also as Hooverizing"). As the threat levels off and, sooner or later, undeniably subsides, the more sense it makes to start the country back up again. Cruel and unfeeling? Not really—the greater good and all that...
    I'm not sure what self-interest is being served by IHME? They are part of the UW system.

    Causes of death- always Cancer, Heart Disease, and Trauma make up the top 3. P&I is #8, but WuFlu has put P&I in the rear view mirror.

    Unchecked, WuFlu was predicted to take 1.5-2 million people, that would have exceeded the combined top 3 annual totals.

    Agree on the politicization and the harm caused by the shutdown not being taken into consideration. Do not think now is the time to take our foot off the brake pedal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Stop lying! While it may be "unproven" for COVID-19 there is over 70 years experience with that drug and its predecessor and some of the more serious side effects such as retinal damage generally don't occur except after repeated high doses and long-term use. The cardiac issues are relatively rare and frequent monitoring by electrocardiograms can give early warning that the patient is at risk.

    It is blatantly obvious that there are those who don't want successful treatment so they can point to increasing body counts as an excuse to implement their agendas. That such people would unnecessarily sacrifice numerous lives in order to achieve their goals is yet one more example of why I say that if they were ever totally honest about their goals and methods people would run screaming from them as the monsters they really are.

    At this point, with patients facing death by suffocation any treatment that might possibly save the patient should not be dismissed as "risky".

    You can't have it both ways. If this virus really IS as deadly as claimed then extraordinary measures to save patients are justified and so are the risk of side effects.
    Lying?

    Yes the drug is known, so are its dangers, and effectiveness against the disease it was intended for

    Its side effects are known and non trivial for some people



    I don't have to have it both ways, there is one way.


    WE are not talking about years long clinical trials, we are talking about weeks long that will determine whether it does more harm than good


    Giving random drugs to thousands of very, very sick people without knowing what they will do is irresponsible


    People touting unproven drugs from places of power are idiots


    It is irresponsible.


    You want to tout it, sure, whatever

    I mean, what is your defense for trumpski? that no one should listen to him because he is an idiot?
    Last edited by gustafson; 04-09-2020 at 07:00 AM.

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  4. #3703
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    So Trump appoints an unqualified and controversial man to head the CDC....and then when the CDC screws up ( which they did ) we’re not supposed to question it’s leadership.

    In my lifetime, I don’t ever remember the CDC screwing up. This is new for the CDC. With such a good track record, I’d have to ask....what’s changed at the CDC for them to suddenly blow it on multiple fronts. First place I’d look is at its leadership.
    . But Redfield has not escaped the controversy that has dogged other Trump-era appointees. In the mid-1990s, Redfield oversaw a clinical trial of an experimental HIV vaccine at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research. He was accused of manipulating data from the trial, “sloppy or, possibly, deceptive” data analysis, and overstating results in a number of talks and publications. After an investigation, the military cleared Redfield of misconduct charges, but as Jon Cohen reported for Science at the time, the Army never provided an explanation of how it reached its conclusions.

    Despite clearing him, military investigators chastised Redfield for having a “close relationship” to a nonprofit called Americans for Sound AIDS/HIV Policy (ASAP) “to a degree that is inappropriate.” ASAP, now known as the Children’s AIDS Fund, was founded by evangelical Christians; it has championed abstinence-only education as a method of combating HIV and other approaches grounded more in religious belief than scientific evidence.

    Of course ..Trump also cut the CDC doctors. His quote at the time was....why should I pay doctors to sit around. I’m a businessman. I’ll hire doctors when I need them .

    Trump is an absolute failure. On so many levels. Piss and vinegar....I’m sorry if my emotions enter into this but facts are facts. Trump is an incompetent leader. And I trust Kushner about as far as can throw a stick. A bunch of greedy crooks who put money before lives.

  5. #3704
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    One of the ICU docs here passed this on last week, regarding what he was hearing about the anti-malarials - admittedly these people were probably at death's door.

    Wouldn't be quaffing them willy-nilly as suggested by some here either, after spending a fair old time swatting mosquitoes in PNG 30 odd years ago, some people have very bad reactions.
    First off, without any attribution that is just an anonymous anecdote. Numerous doctors who claim to have successfully treated patients with it are doing so on the record and in their own names.

    Most likely reasons for the campaign against it are 1) those who want us to wait for a vaccine or patentable treatment and 2) those who want to prolong the "crisis" so they can achieve the societal changes they seek.

    One thing that is certain is that without successful treatment the "crisis" will continue and so will the fear and the un-Constitutional "treatment" imposed on us by the "flatten the curve" crowd. If successful treatment can save most lives the disease becomes not only less feared but also less of a strain on the medical system.

    As I see it the only viable short-term path is:

    Treat The Sick - using whatever works be it chloroquine, intravenous vitamins, antibody transfusions, tissue plasminogen activator, or any other treatment of combination of treatments. With effective treatments the need for intubation, ventilators, and other things that stress the medical system would be greatly reduced.

    Shelter the vulnerable - by advising them to stay home and to limit visitors who may bring infection. This would not include keeping people with neither vulnerabilities nor infection locked in their homes and out of the work force.

    Let everyone else get on with life - including back to work and other activities with strong recommendations to remain cautious of hygiene and unnecessary contact.

    Listening to those who claim we must permanently adjust to "the new normal" means adjusting to a life of massive poverty and dependency that goes hand in hand with oppressive and overreaching government and the destruction of existing traditions, culture and values - in other words exactly what the radical left has sought for decades!

    PS: Those of you who start, finish, or otherwise inject into a post "Trump blah, blah,blah" are only proving my point. Your hatred for Trump and those who vote for him is so pathological that you would willingly sacrifice endless lives and destroy the entire country if you thought that might create a chance to remove him. In that regard you are like passengers on a plane who want the pilot to crash. In short you are insane and WE would have to be crazy to listen to you.

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    lol...but its being implemented in as large a part by the right...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    ^^^ This was interesting I think I'll tune into his channel / sub'd. See how things unfold.

    My "Mum" is about 86 years old , lives in Oxford... She's had strokes and cancer and a bunch of other stuff but not much seems to hold her back, if I was gonna predict what will eventually get her in the end is kinda what the doctor in the video is talking about. She's frightened of hospitals as it is, will do anything to not go into a hospital in the first place (waaaaay before covid 19). Now … ? Have complications of some kind (whatcha gonna do ?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim9lives View Post
    So Trump appoints an unqualified and controversial man to head the CDC....and then when the CDC screws up ( which they did ) we’re not supposed to question it’s leadership.
    Trump did not appoint Redfield, Azar did. When the testing fiasco happened, we still had a Congress. They held a hearing, and Redfield did not impress me at all. I posted back then that I thought he was acting like a CYA bureaucrat, and should go.

    He appears to have been sidelined- does not appear to be involved with the task force at all, not in any of the briefings, etc.

    Certainly questions should be asked. Not just of the CDC, but the FDA, CBP, and any other agency responsible for the nuts and bolts details of carrying out the response. The president can give the orders, but the agencies have to implement them.

    The CDC was watching- they re-routed all travelers from Wuhan to 3 US airports back on January 17. Purpose was to allow incoming passengers to be screened for symptoms. That was BEFORE China and the WHO had even acknowledged there was any human transmission (which Taiwan had notified them of, 3 weeks prior), and one day before Trump was briefed on the situation by Azar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Trump did not appoint Redfield, Azar did. When the testing fiasco happened, we still had a Congress. They held a hearing, and Redfield did not impress me at all. I posted back then that I thought he was acting like a CYA bureaucrat, and should go.
    So, again, not my fault man, nothing is ever trumpskis fault

    pathetic

    truly pathetic


    The presidents job is literally, literally, to pick the people who will actually run the day to day gov't


    He was and is unqualified for that

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    Virus slowing down and soon likely the big decision will be when to go back to work. We should be better off with keeping some distancing, washing hands, perhaps still wearing masks..Likely Trump's call or the governors will/may demand it. We can't go on forever because with no income the country will go belly up.
    If Trump calls it just a little in error the others will take that to the hanging tree.
    What ever should we do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Trump did not appoint Redfield, Azar did. When the testing fiasco happened, we still had a Congress. They held a hearing, and Redfield did not impress me at all. I posted back then that I thought he was acting like a CYA bureaucrat, and should go.

    He appears to have been sidelined- does not appear to be involved with the task force at all, not in any of the briefings, etc.

    Certainly questions should be asked. Not just of the CDC, but the FDA, CBP, and any other agency responsible for the nuts and bolts details of carrying out the response. The president can give the orders, but the agencies have to implement them.

    The CDC was watching- they re-routed all travelers from Wuhan to 3 US airports back on January 17. Purpose was to allow incoming passengers to be screened for symptoms. That was BEFORE China and the WHO had even acknowledged there was any human transmission (which Taiwan had notified them of, 3 weeks prior), and one day before Trump was briefed on the situation by Azar.
    China isn't short of Medical Scientists with good labs, skill, and a sense of responsibility. They had researchers of their OWN raise flags, early-on.

    Some Politician - committee-of and staff/cadre f**ked-up, made bad decisions. More followed.

    Nobody SINCE has been "perfect", either. Some just did the best they could FASTER and HARDER than others.

    US response hasn't been "perfect"? Why TF are we not surprised?
    OTOH, it wasn't half bad. And whatever was, was. Time-machine to go back and do diferently is bustid.

    Important part is we keep reviewing NOW what needs to be better, then trying to MAKE IT BETTER, going forward. Keep yer distance, lather, rinse, repeat.

    That works.

    "Blame Trump"? WTF has THAT accomplished? Ever?

  18. #3712
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    What ever should we do?
    Finish all your projects and clean up the house. In case anything happens to you, your relatives won't be as pissed-off cleaning up your shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    I thought Trump mentioned price gouging...A thing that had a catalog price should have respected that price IMHO>
    Yes I hope Trump resolves this price gouging...If It really existed.
    The USA model of states and hospitals bidding/buying on their own account is that it allows USA drug companies to hike the price. It is one of the reasons that drug prices are so expensive in the USA.


    The New Zealand solution to this problem is PHARMAC
    Pharmac buys drugs on the international market (other countries do the same). As a single large buyer for the supply of drugs to all hospitals, doctors and individuals, drug suppliers are competing for significant contracts and pricing is highly competitive. The result is cheaper drugs for New Zealander's

    The USA drug companies hate Pharmac and have been trying to shut down Pharmac because competitive bidding cuts their huge profit margins.

    Trump is the latest President to try and force New Zealand and other countries to close their national drug buying organisations.


    Dazz

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  22. #3714
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    \
    Trump is the latest President to try and force New Zealand and other countries to close their national drug buying organisations. [/URL]

    Dazz
    Please stop - my "despise level" is already at 11...

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  24. #3715
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    ya, wanted to give you a like dazz.....couldnt bring myself to.
    agree thats crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    The USA model of states and hospitals bidding/buying on their own account is that it allows USA drug companies to hike the price. It is one of the reasons that drug prices are so expensive in the USA.


    The New Zealand solution to this problem is PHARMAC
    Pharmac buys drugs on the international market (other countries do the same). As a single large buyer for the supply of drugs to all hospitals, doctors and individuals, drug suppliers are competing for significant contracts and pricing is highly competitive. The result is cheaper drugs for New Zealander's

    The USA drug companies hate Pharmac and have been trying to shut down Pharmac because competitive bidding cuts their huge profit margins.

    Trump is the latest President to try and force New Zealand and other countries to close their national drug buying organisations.


    Dazz
    This is true for the most part. In the US, it's more the pharmacy chains and insurance companies that negotiate the pharmaceutical prices rather than the hospitals.

    Developing new drugs is a risky and expensive process- many years of clinical trials, and billions of dollars to get a new drug in the market. The costs reflect that. But there is a benefit that most people outside the US don't recognize, which is that we are subsidizing other countries.

    I will give an example that I have personal experience with. The drug is called Opdivo. This is one of the new class of biologics developed in the US. The company that developed it was MedRx.

    Opdivo is a very successful cancer therapy and used on a variety of hard to treat cancers. The WHO has listed it as one of the "essential medicines" that all people should have access to.

    I have a close family member that takes it. She has had amazing results on a cancer that a few years ago, she would already be gone. Her lung lesions are almost undetectable today. She began receiving it immediately after she was diagnosed, as the most effective treatment available. It does not have nearly the negative side effects of traditional chemo or radiation treatments, and she is more active today than she was 2 years ago. She looks and feels great.

    It's expensive- a one-month treatment in the US is $13,000. In the UK, it's about $5700.

    For a new drug to go on the formulary of a country, it has to be approved by the regulatory authority for that country. Part of that process is negotiating the cost, and how it will be prescribed.

    You're right, the purchasing power of a country helps them get the price down. If they don't reach an acceptable price, the drug just isn't available in that country. Or they just steal it. Bristol Myers-Squibb bought out MedRx, and when they were negotiating with India for Opdivo, they were told if they wouldn't take India's price, go home. They would just produce it in India anyway- we don't care about your patent.

    Patients in the US got Opdivo in 2014. In Canada, it was about 2 years later. In Europe, it was 2 years after that. Both Canada and Europe (I haven't read the approvals for other countries) have a lot of restrictions on how it can be prescribed. Other (older, less expensive, less effective) therapies have to be attempted first. If these fail, Opdivo is available, if the cancer is one of the types that the drug is approved to treat.

    So yes- the US consumer pays more, but hidden inside there is also why you pay less, and why most of the new "blockbuster" medicines are developed in the US.

    I love my mom, and I'm glad Opdivo exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    Finish all your projects and clean up the house. In case anything happens to you, your relatives won't be as pissed-off cleaning up your shit.
    My son already told me the same.. He has no idea what machines and fixtures are worth.

    Janie would just call a scrap man..

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  29. #3718
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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    Finish all your projects and clean up the house. In case anything happens to you, your relatives won't be as pissed-off cleaning up your shit.
    I was doing that lol.

    Or just prioritizing anything that seemed a little bit knarly for someone else to deal with... (I'll leave that to your imagination ) but being sick for 14 days or so... "Standards " kinda slip a bit especially when you have zero energy and you are on your own. "Bachelor existence" gone "Pear shaped" lol.

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  31. #3719
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    Abbott test kits stalled in distribution.
    More intentional under testing.

  32. #3720
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    you know what im going to say....


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