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    Quote Originally Posted by bosleyjr View Post
    Have to disagree. The ignorance on the right is perhaps more dangerous right now. As in "Maybe we open the economy back up - better that people die than we kill the economy". As in "This whole infection is just a publicity stunt/hoax".
    I would agree if what you say is true, but it's a complete mis-characterization of what Trump was saying.

    He says something, I understand what he means, but he is not articulate. When his enemies repeat it, it's always portrayed to mean the opposite of what he was saying.

    He didn't call the virus a hoax- he called the way the media was portraying the response "another hoax"- referencing the previous Russia Collusion and Ukraine Extortion "hoaxes". His lingo. I knew what he was saying. I never once thought he was denying the existence of the virus- that's not even a rational argument.

    Likewise with the characterization of getting people back to work. It gets blown completely out of proportion for political reasons. He knows you can't just proclaim the threat no longer exists. They have been working the problem with data, and they are developing a plan to maybe get people moving a little better in places, determined by the conditions.

    No one, including Trump, thinks we'll all be back to work by Easter. He's just trying to give people some confidence that we will get through this.

    Is Trump ignorant for being inarticulate in his speech, or is it the people who intentionally misinterpret his words?

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    For about 6 weeks the current US POTUS, Mr D.Trump, called the coronavirus more or less trivial, upto about the end of february.
    There are several, perhaps 10-20 major media clips from official press releases where he keeps repeating it.

    Until the end of february, there was an official message of "no-alert" by the US government, led by the US president Mr Trump.
    The issue was officially trivialised.
    No major US federal effort, tasking, or funding, was done, by end of february.

    This was a mistake, a big error, by the US government and by Mr Trump.

    The same error was done by italia,
    by Spain,
    by Finland,
    by the UK.

    Where Italia finally reacted, well, if late, mid-march, none of the other countries had done anything.
    And the first Italian orders were mostly ignored or non-effective, with dinner parties permitted until about a week ago.
    == 22/3 italians were still congregating in dinner parties.

    --
    Today 27/3/2020 there is still no real, effective, US federal quarantine.
    This is *terrible*.

    Because total effective quarantine, essentially kills the exponential virus transmission path, and stops the contagion.
    Within 3 weeks, majority.
    Like in Wuhan, china.
    Singapore.
    South Korea.
    Taiwan.

    I am here in Barcelona, Spain, very affected by the virus but with total lockdown of all people since 15 days ago.
    One of the most affected countries, after Italy.
    Lockdown is widely obeyed and respected.
    Very very good obedience (first time in spanish history).
    --

    Here in Spain, theoretically the second most infected country p.popula, the *reality* is totally different.
    Between today, friday, and sunday, 29/3, the exponential increase in the nr of infected will stop.

    So there will be new infected by stats, but the nr of detected-increase will stop being exponential.
    Within 1-3 days, more or less.
    This is because 15 days ago we all went into house arrest.

    So the real new infections are those that are done within families and similar, since 15 days ago.
    Not exponential, but relational within any close family unit.
    And 98% are with no or low symptoms.

    The official numbers of new infected are climbing in Spain, and elsewhere .. but not really climbing (here) because there are more infected.
    But mostly because more infections are being detected, and new testing and treatment is being done.

    So more of the infected are being detected .. by doing 100x more testing.
    Obvious.
    This does not mean more people are being infected.

    I am in lockdown in Spain, with my family.
    One person has gone out for groceries, only, 4 times, thats it.
    For 15 days so far.

    --
    In china a country of 1.x billion less than 10.000 died, 8x.000 infected.

    ??
    Why on earth should the US have a possible 1.2 M death rate, as predicted by some US pundits ?
    ??
    Or a need for 500.000 or 1.000.000 ventilators, when china needed 20x less with double the population ?

    I suggest the US popula is very well able to choose their risks.
    With simply honest messages, probably 99.x% of the US popula would do just as the Italian and Spanish popula do now.

    Suggest in essence.
    "You can go out and visit Your family. 1/20 of cases will result in 30% of deaths".
    "stay home. Stay Not, and 1/10 will die, you, your loved ones, your family. Is it worth it ?".

    The Miami Beach spring break example is very good.
    Dinks going because they know they wont get hurt.
    But when they are informed they will bring back a virus, that will kill 1/10 of their grandparents and parents and uncles and 1/40 of their friends .. ?

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    On the toilet paper thing, for some levity and also kind of sobering

    I was married to a Czech girl for some time (we have a killer awesome 13yo daughter and are still good friends)

    I noticed that her parents always had a little box with cut up squares of magazine or newsprint in the bathroom and about midway through "hey, what's with the squares of-" caught myself as I realized what life they'd endured and she was really pissed off actually that her dad clung to these old ways. He just can't see spending money on something to wipe his ass. Was there over Christmas and still got his little box next to cutout Sudoku from the paper.

    Both parents are high level doctors, dad quit his job a few weeks ago as his clinic wasn't allowing him to wear ppe while seeing 50+ patients/day and mom is on chemo. He wouldn't take that risk.

    Daughter is stitching masks to send there now, plenty of time on her hands and her mom has a stockpile of material and such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    I've bagged enough patients that that thing scares the living shit out of me.
    Could you expand on that a bit? Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIP6A View Post
    Your link seems to be dead.
    Times links sometimes do that, they have a paywall now. Gist of it was administration backing away from deal with GM and Ventech to produce up to 20k ventilators/month because they’re not needed and cost too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmead View Post
    Times links sometimes do that, they have a paywall now. Gist of it was administration backing away from deal with GM and Ventech to produce up to 20k ventilators/month because they’re not needed and cost too much.
    Most of the "ventilator shortage" actually seems to be based on very dramatic predictions that have already been scaled back by their author in London.

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    Disagree.
    For about 15 times, Mr Trump stated publicly in press conferences that the coronavirus is trivial or a hoax from his political opponents, the democrats.

    He called the issue a hoax and a stunt and a nothing-burger, more or less, over about 4-6 weeks.
    January-February.

    Mr Trump stated that they had done a great response,
    .. and 6 weeks later zero federal action and no PPE and no funds and no ventilators for New York.
    And no coronavirus tests.

    Tests available within 1 day from germany since early february, one of the most respected scientific establishments on the planet.
    And tests available from Hong Kong, leading the global pandemic testing with proven results.



    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I would agree if what you say is true, but it's a complete mis-characterization of what Trump was saying.

    He didn't call the virus a hoax- he called the way the media was portraying the response "another hoax"- referencing the previous Russia Collusion and Ukraine Extortion "hoaxes". His lingo. I knew what he was saying. I never once thought he was denying the existence of the virus- that's not even a rational argument.

    Likewise with the characterization of getting people back to work. It gets blown completely out of proportion for political reasons. He knows you can't just proclaim the threat no longer exists. They have been working the problem with data, and they are developing a plan to maybe get people moving a little better in places, determined by the conditions.

    No one, including Trump, thinks we'll all be back to work by Easter. He's just trying to give people some confidence that we will get through this.
    Is Trump ignorant for being inarticulate in his speech, or is it the people who intentionally misinterpret his words?

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    Exclamation The boat is sinking fast

    Quote Originally Posted by bosleyjr View Post
    Have to disagree. The ignorance on the right is perhaps more dangerous right now. As in "Maybe we open the economy back up - better that people die than we kill the economy". As in "This whole infection is just a publicity stunt/hoax".

    I'm a strong Conservative and am (or at least was) a Republican. I'm ashamed of both parties. Cowardice, dishonesty, ignorance, and self-interest.

    Two people in a life raft, with a hole in it and sinking fast, and they're arguing. "Your dishonest and counterproductive liberal policies lead to this hole! You're an idiot!". The other: "No, no, no, its your heartless ignorant policies that caused the hole! You're a moron!". Pardon me, but FIX THE FUCKING HOLE. And then, as you sit in the lifeboat, reflect upon the fact that both of you were right...
    I agree 100%. My last post about B-17's was based on mathematical fact. Today in Ohio, there were 1,127 reported cases of Covid-19 and 18 reported deaths. That's at least 1.5% deaths. That is at least 15 TIMES as deadly as "the flu". These are just the reported cases. Once untested others incubate the virus...voila hospital overruns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post

    No one, including Trump, thinks we'll all be back to work by Easter. He's just trying to give people some confidence that we will get through this.
    so you actually know what trump thinks?
    tell us, what is the trick so we also know.

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    No one, including Trump, knows what he might say tomorrow, or even today.

    Wait a minuet, did I say that? It is hard to keep tract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Disagree.
    For about 15 times, Mr Trump stated publicly in press conferences that the coronavirus is trivial or a hoax from his political opponents, the democrats.

    He called the issue a hoax and a stunt and a nothing-burger, more or less, over about 4-6 weeks.
    January-February.
    Sorry, but bullshit. His comment was on Feb 28 at a rally in South Carolina. Any subsequent comments were in response to the media spin.

    These were his words:
    One of my people came up to me and said, ‘Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia. That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything, they tried it over and over, they’ve been doing it since you got in. It’s all turning, they lost, it’s all turning. Think of it. Think of it. And this is their new hoax. But you know, we did something that’s been pretty amazing. We’re 15 people [cases of coronavirus infection] in this massive country. And because of the fact that we went early, we went early, we could have had a lot more than that.
    His comments have to be taken in context of what was known at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    No one, including Trump, knows what he might say tomorrow, or even today.
    Gee, could that be because it's a constantly evolving situation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Good intentions, but that's scary.

    I've bagged enough patients that that thing scares the living shit out of me.

    snowman, what is the concern?

    Also, the options aren't "Either this contraption or a fully developed and modern ventilator". It may be "Either this contraption, or no ventilation/death". I'm being a little contrary here (if you've bagged patients you have more experience than me, although I was qualified as an EMT-B*), but if someone's O2sat was 85%, would you not hook them up to this?

    *EMT-B is EMT basic, which is about 3 months of training. EMT-P is Paramedic, and they have a couple of years training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    . . .Trump had placed travel restrictions on Wuhan 5 days earlier, and had no real reason to think that the steps already taken were not adequate. . .
    My own take -- and this isn't meant as political but common sense -- is that US comments / responses on containment were pretty much based on the notion that dirty foreigners were the problem; not people and our own citizens in general. The "Wall" was actually invoked at some point as a disease-stopper.

    It was China's fault, then Europe's fault, and our own 100 million+ passport holders not much considered. Same pattern most recently in the US - hey go to CPAC, Mardi Gras, Spring Break and party . . . It certainly didn't help to have this virus continually minimized. Even the optics of administration officials shaking hands, near face to face in press meetings were part of the disasterous messaging.

    So, the Chinese couldn't come in. Probably the one good step taken early on, amidst a dozen missed opportunities. But visitors and citizens working in China sailed in with just a cursory "how you feelin?" at the port of entry. Friend of a family member (a PhD researcher working for the US govt.) was actually working in China on pork-related viruses - they knew early on - and scooted back home. We DID have reason to believe the steps taken were not adequate; and quite early in the game.

    When we had cruise ships full of CoVid-exposed passengers, first notion was that if we kept them offshore they wouldn't add to the numbers. No sense spooking the market. The later disembarkments, at least early on, were mishandled. People squeezed in line getting off. The 14 day quarantine completely botched in places. That's probably much of the Bay Area's current contagion.

    When it was Europe's turn for blame, Europeans couldn't come in but pretty much the same protocol (e.g. near nothing) for our students, kids, family, business people returning from places like Italy. That never made sense to me; said as much earlier here. That could be why the NY metro area is reeling right now.

    Compounding all this was the late start in making testing kits available - and the repeated BS about everything in control, not to worry, go to work and you'll get well, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janvanruth View Post
    so you actually know what trump thinks?
    tell us, what is the trick so we also know.
    It's not a trick, really. I just listen to what he actually says and ignore the idiots who call themselves journalists.

    But I just want to leave it with you: We have to go back. This is the United States of America. They don’t want to sit around and wait. And they’ll be practicing — and, by the way, a lot of people misinterpret when I say “go back.” They’re going to be practicing, as much as you can, social distancing and washing your hands and not shaking hands and all of the things that we talk about so much. But they have to go back to work. Our country has to go back. Our country is based on that.

    And I think it’s going to happen pretty quickly. I think it’s going to happen pretty quickly. A lot of progress is made, but we got to go back to work. We may take sections of our country. We may take large sections of our country that aren’t so seriously affected, and we may do it that way. But we’ve got to start the process pretty soon. So we’ll be talking to you a little bit more about that next week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bosleyjr View Post
    snowman, what is the concern?

    Also, the options aren't "Either this contraption or a fully developed and modern ventilator". It may be "Either this contraption, or no ventilation/death". I'm being a little contrary here (if you've bagged patients you have more experience than me, although I was qualified as an EMT-B*), but if someone's O2sat was 85%, would you not hook them up to this?

    *EMT-B is EMT basic, which is about 3 months of training. EMT-P is Paramedic, and they have a couple of years training.
    Long term ventilation isn’t done with pure oxygen, and things like positive end expiratory pressure, respiratory rate, tidal volume, and % oxygen all come in to play to determine how well alveoli take up oxygen. Now, my patients were all dogs and cats and had no underlying lung disease...but even then you can get shunting, wherein you are ventilating the lungs, but nothing is really happening.

    When you start to troubleshoot these things on a real life patient, the last thing you want to worry about is what is my tidal volume and is it consistent, is there a giant leak in the system (and ambubags leak like a sieve).

    I guess my point is, yes, a skilled respiratory can probably make one of those work....but we don’t have enough skilled rt’s. Ventilate a patient wrong, and now you don’t just have a person with bad lungs for the rest of their life, you have a person with bad lungs and bad kidneys and brain damage.

    I’d much rather see them working to convert the thousands of 100% oxygen anesthetic vents that are all over the place...which I do believe they are doing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    An easy hand on the helm is quick to be recognized.
    A vessels motion is steady and and the course held true.
    A capable crew is also notable.
    They reef early and ride easy through storms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    My own take -- and this isn't meant as political but common sense -- is that US comments / responses on containment were pretty much based on the notion that dirty foreigners were the problem; not people and our own citizens in general. The "Wall" was actually invoked at some point as a disease-stopper.
    It is hard to take you seriously when you say you are not being political, and in the very same sentence characterize the reason for the restrictions as keeping out "dirty foreigners".

    You are using loaded and inflammatory rhetoric and calling it "common sense".

    I have no doubt people were not adequately screened, and I'm also pretty sure Donald Trump was busy being President that day.

    Trump ---->DHS ----->TSA/CBP...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Gee, could that be because it's a constantly evolving situation?
    I would have to say....Yes.

    Along with some times he say too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Along with some times he say too much.
    More often he says one thing too many times.

    Our alternative is Biden, who can't even manage to say something the first time.

    Helluva choice.


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