Correct technique for draw filing - Page 2
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 49
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,750
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fciron View Post
    I'm a blacksmith. When I use a jeweller's saw I don't even mount the blades in the frame. I find it saves time if I just break them and give up. ��
    Too risky by half of injury. Cheaper to not even buy the blades, just go off and "pull yerself" with either or BOTH hands...

    Double advantage at my age, is yah ferget that sort of goal a step and a half along the way and save even more time and money.

    Yah just can't remember how it came to pass there's still a few bucks left in the grocery budget.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,750
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bosleyjr View Post
    That's how I was taught. Is it possible that proper drawfiling involves a burnishing stroke?
    The draw-filing as got wrote-up, early-on, was finishing off a hand-forged octagonal barrel for a Pennsylvania rifle - which had inordinately looooong tubes.

    Chronic challenge is clearing chip so as not to drag and gall, so, no, not on my dance-card.

    Separate steps are best if one wants a really nice finish to not be marred on the next-to-last draw.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Tennessee
    Posts
    405
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    123
    Likes (Received)
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fciron View Post

    I'm a blacksmith. When I use a jeweller's saw I don't even mount the blades in the frame. I find it saves time if I just break them and give up. 😑

    that is why the frames are adjustable, to use the nibs of blades. You know we can not waste a perfectly good inch of blade.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Country
    LUXEMBOURG
    Posts
    15
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    I take the trouble of swapping hands for draw filing. I hold the handle in my left hand and use my right hand on the end of the file. This way it cuts on the draw stroke. I find that I have better control this way and I can produce an excellent finish this way. The better control also seems to make it easier to control dimensions while draw filing.
    That is what makes sense to me, logically thinking. And for sure pushing or pulling would depend on which hand holds the handle. By the way, as far as I know, the Japanese saws are usually referred to as pull saws, not draw saws.

    I've done some digging in old books, and here's what I've found.

    In 1878, Nicholson gave quite different description of draw filing:
    Full text of "A Treatise on Files and Rasps Descriptive and Illustrated: for the Use of ..."
    Page 71
    Code:
    DRAWFILING. — Files are sometimes used by grasping at each 
    end, and moving them sidewise across the work, after the manner of 
    using the spoke-shave. This operation is known as drawfiling, and 
    is usually performed in laying the strokes of turned work, length- 
    wise, instead of circular, as left from the lathe finish, as well as when 
    giving a final fit to the shaft that is to receive a coupling ; cases, gen- 
    erally, in which no considerable amount of stock is to be removed, 
    thus, any defects in the principle of construction, or arrangement, of 
    the teeth of the file, are not so readily apparent. 
    
    Files, as they are ordinarily made, are intended to cut when used 
    with a forward stroke, and the same file cannot work smooth, or to 
    the best advantage, when moved sidewise, unless care is taken that 
    the face of the teeth present themselves, during the forward movement 
    of the file, at a sufficient angle to cut, instead of scratching the work. 
    To accomplish this, the angle at which the file is held, with respect 
    to the line of its movement, must vary, with different files, depending 
    upon the angle at which the last, or up cut is made. The pressure 
    should also be relieved during the back stroke, as in ordinary filing. 
    
    When properly used, work may be finished somewhat finer, and 
    the scratches more closely congregated, than in the ordinary use of the 
    same file ; as, in drawfiling, the teeth produce a shearing or shaving cut.
    A spokeshave only cuts when pulling (drawing) it towards the user.

    In 1943 File Filosophy, Nicholson gives a different description:
    Code:
    Draw filing consists of grasping the file 
    firmly at each end and alternately 
    pushing and pulling the tile sidewise 
    across the work. Since files are pri- 
    marily made to cut on a longitudinal 
    forward stroke, a file with a short -angle 
    cut should never be used for drawfiling, 
    because of the likelihood of scoring or 
    scratching instead of shaving or shear- 
    ing, When properly done, draw filing 
    produces a somewhat finer finish than 
    “straight” filing. 
    
    Draw filing is used extensively right 
    in file factories themselves, in prepar- 
    ing file blanks for cutting. It assures 
    a perfectly smooth, level surface and 
    uniform file teeth. (See chapter on 
    “How a File Is Born.”)
    This book from 1902, not coming from a file manufacturer, says the following on page 41:
    http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jfarr...ir_constru.pdf
    Code:
    Work should be done on the forward stroke, the file being relieved of all pressure, but not raised from the surface of the work, on the return stroke.
    The illustration on page 39 shows the file being held at right angle to the work, "handle is usually removed", both hands on the body of the file, tang pointing to the right.

    It seems that even in 1900, there was no consensus on the topic... Logically, though, I think what EPAIII said makes sense, and it also corresponds to what the last book I quoted says (difference being the preference for cutting on the push vs the pull/draw stroke).

  5. Likes Matt_Maguire liked this post
  6. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,750
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gene-pavlovsky View Post

    ... in drawfiling, the teeth produce a shearing or shaving cut.

    .... Since files are primarily made to cut on a longitudinal
    forward stroke, a file with a short -angle cut should never be used for drawfiling, because of the likelihood of scoring or scratching instead of shaving or shearing,
    Those are the key points.

    I did say most of my drawfiling depended on a "long angle" (lathe bastard) file.

    Push makes NO sense to me.

    Not just on terminology, but because human musculature, skeletal arrangement and control nerves just don't provide the same TYPE and responsive range of control. Not even for a person fully ambidextrous, BTW (Ich).

    That said, what works for others .. works for others.

    You really want to master this?

    It is all well and good to have done the research, (thanks for that, BTW..) BUT... it won't happen until you go off, select a material you expect to work with, and learn with your own hands their overall coordination, sensing, and control work, and which files best suit YOU.

    "Individual craftsmanship" thing, as it were. Whatever works. Works.

    NB: I can no longer find 22" and 24" Nicholson Long-Angle Lathe Bastard files, but ISTR they are still made up to around 16" or maybe even 18".

    It wasn't so much the length I wanted, although that can provide for easier control as to adhering to a chosen plane.

    It is primarily the proportionally greater width and area of teeth and gullets so as to not risk load-up & scratching or galling on as little as a single - even partial - stroke [1].

    As said, it is always the next-to-last stroke, too - and thar went your hitherto lovely "milled" surface!


  7. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    764
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    656
    Likes (Received)
    211

    Default

    Technique is something you learn. With a file you can feel when its cutting.
    Filing on the push stroke may have became a standard so that you are pushing yourself away from the workpiece. I have turned files around to cut in the pull direction for control.
    I have often thought a tool to hold a file would be a benefit. Lessen fatigue when doing a lot of filing.

    Something similar to this tool below made to hold a flexible file. It would have to grip from the file from ends. No turnbuckle.
    Although for guys that have spent years using a file you may lose the feel of the cut and effect control. A little getting the feel for it


    10.jpg




    .

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Louisville, KY, USA
    Posts
    920
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    213
    Likes (Received)
    203

    Default

    Jed,
    I'm pretty sure you've seen me break blades while putting them in the frame. That's why I only estimate now.

    Lewis

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    764
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    656
    Likes (Received)
    211

    Default

    Already having the handle on one end of the file one if these steering wheel spinners would easily be made to clamp to the control end.
    Just a thought


    222.jpg

  10. #29
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Interior British Columbia
    Posts
    2,220
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    230
    Likes (Received)
    671

    Default

    You can draw-file on the pull or push, depending on the orientation of the file.

    You should make a point of understanding how a file tooth is shaped, to understand how it needs to be applied to the work, in order to produce the correct results.
    Sorta along the lines that you wouldn't expect a milling cutter to work very well if it was being driven in alternating directions.

    And, practice!

    I find more control on the Draw, rather than pushing, but as needs, I can switch the file around and cut either way.

    Double cut files suck, IMO, for draw filing. Have had good results for coarse work with the Magi-Cut files though, that have a series of diagonal grooves ground across the cut pattern, they look like a double cut, sorta, except they only cut in one direction.

    Most of your results will vary depending upon your ability to see cause and effect as the work progresses. You develop a feel for how much pressure to apply on the cut, so as to not pin or bung up the file, and for how much, if any pressure, you apply on the return stroke, which may allow you to skate the cuttings free of the file teeth, between cuts, or you may find that the work needs the file perfectly cleaned between strokes.

    I think for draw filing, having a massive handle or holder is counter productive. You lose all the feel you might otherwise have. Sorta like trying to sharpen your pocketknife with an angle grinder. Lots of room to go backwards, as far as progress goes. Those body files (Vixen files) sure work a treat for moving some material on aluminum, if you lean down on them though!

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Hawaii
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    93
    Likes (Received)
    32

    Default

    I can add some good stuff in here as I started my career in Aerospace with a file in my hand!
    TrevJ is right in that the feel is very important so no handles! The closer to the finished product the more "feel" I want. Thumbs can be positioned over cut area too but I couldn't find a good hands image for this. Bare hands on files and contact with work piece especially for finish passes.

    file1.jpg

    file2.jpg

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    4,870
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    89
    Likes (Received)
    900

    Default

    A teacher in a metals class I took said that a person has more control when pulling a object towards the body than pushing a object away.
    The object would be a file or a piece that was being polished on a surface.

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,750
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    I can add some good stuff in here as I started my career in Aerospace with a file in my hand!
    TrevJ is right in that the feel is very important so no handles! The closer to the finished product the more "feel" I want. Thumbs can be positioned over cut area too but I couldn't find a good hands image for this. Bare hands on files and contact with work piece especially for finish passes.

    file1.jpg

    file2.jpg
    Those are good. Gloves are OK. There's no rotating machinery involved.

    Don't forget that humble chalk needs a Day Job, too, and is more important in draw-filing than otherwise.

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Louisville, KY, USA
    Posts
    920
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    213
    Likes (Received)
    203

    Default

    That's interesting. Those illustrations show the tang to the left and the direction of cut as a push.

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    9,894
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3340
    Likes (Received)
    3546

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    I can add some good stuff in here as I started my career in Aerospace with a file in my hand!
    TrevJ is right in that the feel is very important so no handles! The closer to the finished product the more "feel" I want. Thumbs can be positioned over cut area too but I couldn't find a good hands image for this. Bare hands on files and contact with work piece especially for finish passes.

    file1.jpg

    file2.jpg
    That is the way I was taught with holding the file at the same angle to the part, card clean it often and sight over it to something a distance away to keep the same flat to the surface, often with first setting down on he part to know where the sight target was with feeling the part surface. The tooth blade making the same stroke would give the best finish the file could make.

    With using only a top quality file. I found that a thin file could bend to an arc so not file true flat.

    Harbor Fright and the like file are not dead flat so might be ok for bevel-an-edge or burring but are not suitable as a machinist file IMHO..

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Hawaii
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    93
    Likes (Received)
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Those are good. Gloves are OK. There's no rotating machinery involved.

    Don't forget that humble chalk needs a Day Job, too, and is more important in draw-filing than otherwise.
    They never gave us chalk! I have made my way without it all these years. File card = yes. In my professional use with a file it was all on aluminum. Around the house, sharpening tools or mower blades, etc on steel and harder metals I am often looking for more bite, especially if the file is getting old..does the chalk help with that?

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Hawaii
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    93
    Likes (Received)
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fciron View Post
    That's interesting. Those illustrations show the tang to the left and the direction of cut as a push.
    Oh shoots, excellent observation! Here is an updated set of images. I try to limit my escaped defects! lol

    file1.jpg

    file2.jpg

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,750
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    Oh shoots, excellent observation! Here is an updated set of images. I try to limit my escaped defects! lol

    file1.jpg

    file2.jpg
    Don't push yer luck! Just turn the arrows around and the tang was OK.

    Hints:

    - Fingertips last longer in trail than when positioned, leading, to grip and stall.

    - place hands atop, rather than under, the pull stroke balance can even more easily be sensed off the thumbnails.

  19. Likes John Garner liked this post
  20. #38
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Interior British Columbia
    Posts
    2,220
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    230
    Likes (Received)
    671

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    They never gave us chalk! I have made my way without it all these years. File card = yes. In my professional use with a file it was all on aluminum. Around the house, sharpening tools or mower blades, etc on steel and harder metals I am often looking for more bite, especially if the file is getting old..does the chalk help with that?
    Chalk won't help with the file wear. It prevents the chips wedging into the teeth, allowing (one hopes) a better finish to be produced than would be by dragging the pinned in junk back and forth across the work.
    Buy a new file once in a while!

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Those are good. Gloves are OK. There's no rotating machinery involved.

    Don't forget that humble chalk needs a Day Job, too, and is more important in draw-filing than otherwise.
    Better than 3/4 of the folks I have seen abusing some undeserving piece of metal with an equally abused file, seem incapable of understanding that the file is actually a precision cutting tool, and needs some maintenance in use.
    Chalk to keep it from pinning, a decent file card, and a bit of brass or copper sheet, or a squashed down cartridge case mouth, to break out the jammed in bits without making a right mess of whatever may have been left of the edge on the teeth, is at least as good a start place as any.

    Thin files and those with a slight bow in them, simply require that you pay attention to how they are applied to the work they are required to do. Take advantage of the bend in a file for reaching those spots in the middle of a surface that you might not wish to slide a whole length of file across, or flex the thin file for the same effect. Horses for courses and all that, too. Lots of variety out there to choose from, it's not that tough to have a couple different files around for different types of work.

    I have not yet seen fit to stone of the teeth for lathe use, but Some of the fellas I talked to that did were happy with that.

  21. Likes cyanidekid liked this post
  22. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Country
    LUXEMBOURG
    Posts
    15
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default

    You guys are great, I'm learning more than from any book I've found.
    Thanks to everyone for great advice.
    Now just got to do the hours of practice to have this all in muscle memory.

  23. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,750
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by trevj View Post
    I have not yet seen fit to stone of the teeth for lathe use, but Some of the fellas I talked to that did were happy with that.
    Great post. Seems we agree on some things, after all!

    We didn't have to dub the teeth. No shortage of files in varying degrees of wear back when they were used so much more often! One sort of "graded" them and used what they had wherever they gave appropriate results.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •